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Intentional Foot Fault
- Thread starter esdubya
- Start date
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blackandwhite
Double Eagle Member
trust me when it came up, im like wtf is this all about. i was so glad that i beat him and even let him have the extra throw 
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it was a casual round
I've never been called for a foot fault. It's an honor thing, as it is with everyone I play casual rounds with. Foot faults are called on ourselves and don't need to be seconded. No warning.
However, I stand by my observation that most guys that call foot faults are d-heads. I didn't say all guys, but most are.
If someone is obviously attempting to cheat, there isn't a hesitation in calling them out on it. Whether they have honor or not, is up to them.
Maybe this fun depleting discussion is why I don't find tournaments to be fun. Playing with honorable opponents is a blast.
The dude on the bike
Double Eagle Member
Do what ever you like , there is no cheating within the rules. I believe this is called strategy.
jcf5083
Double Eagle Member
I've never given out warnings for foot faults, but I have pointed it out to a kid I was playing with (tourney round) but made sure everyone knew I wasn't "officially" flagging him for it, just to try to avoid it in the future.
Although I could see myself being more of a d-bag if I didn't have the bad habit of leaving the ground before my release on jump putts
Although I could see myself being more of a d-bag if I didn't have the bad habit of leaving the ground before my release on jump putts
I found this thread via Google after participating in a recent conversation about this topic, and I arrived at the same conclusion as the above quoted posts in making my post.
Link to the thread: http://www.pdga.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=36730
What I typed there (with some edits for clarity):
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I played in my first PDGA event, and in the first round, on the eighth hole, the eventual winner of the MA2 division did something very similar to this.
He was a few feet from the basket, and stood in a straddle behind his mini. He set his disc on the edge of the basket, still holding the edge of the disc with his right hand, and was going to flip the disc in with his right hand, but he didn't flip hard enough and the disc started to fall out.
So the player tried to catch his disc (even though it had clearly left his fingers), and fell flat on his face beside the basket in doing so. The disc was on the ground just in front of his outstretched hand.
He promptly called a falling putt on himself and everyone else looked at me, apparently because I was closest to him (despite knowing it was my first tournament, so I was just laying low, as I didn't want to be "Mr. Rules Enforcer" or anything - see above quoted stigma about who is actually "wrong".). I said only "dude, whatever" and shook my head. He re-putted (normally, just lobbing it a foot or two into the basket) and claimed his four with no penalties or anything. I think the rest of the group was too stunned to speak. I know I was stunned trying to process how big of a douche move that was.
We only had four or five holes left to go, so the odds of getting another penalty stroke were minimal.
I feel this player gamed the system. Ignore the fact that he can't even call a foot fault on himself, what if a friend in the group had called it? Why should it be up to the group to call something on yourself?
In my opinion, he should have been called for a foot fault AND the result should stand. A one-stroke penalty is pretty severe. Let's do away with the warning for foot faults and just institute it right away - particularly for putts inside the circle where "re-throws" seem to be ripe for abuse by friends on the same card (or even an observing group).
I could see it going one of two ways, both of which would improve the rule IMO:
- No warnings on any throw, ever, for a stance violation/foot fault.
- No warnings for stance violations/foot faults inside the circle, one warning (so long as it's before any penalties incurred inside the circle) outside the circle.
There are no warnings in golf (except slow play, to give players a chance to get into position, and even then it's often because it would be unfair to penalize the entire group if one player is slow). You break a rule, you get a penalty.
I'd like to see more of that in disc golf.
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Now, I fully realize I should have said "no, you'll putt from there, as you can't call a fault on yourself," but so should the rest of the group, and again, really, it was a three-foot putt, so… whatever. That guy's gonna have to live with himself, and believe me, plenty of others at the tournament knew of his actions.
I argue in the PDGA thread that rules violations should simply incur a penalty. This "warning" system is ripe for abuse and stupid anyway, particular with the re-throw. Just penalize and move on.
P.S. I believe I'm correct to revive an old, relevant thread rather than starting a new one, but if I'm not, please create a new thread with my post, moderators. Thank you.
sugarnot
Eagle Member
i actually just brought this up within my group of friends this past weekend. It's sketchy but people grow so accustomed to calling a foot fault that they may not even be paying attention as to whether or not the putt is going to go in and once its done its done. Like the others said...ethical? eh... The rule is easily changed to reflect a successful attempt at a putt and foot fault taking place requires etc and its fixed.
I would want to say this is an intentional attempt to circumvent the rules. AKA, cheating; grounds for disqualification.
But also, overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules is also grounds for disqualification. So anyone that says "I wouldn't call it 'cause he missed" should be disqualified.
But also, overt failure or refusal to enforce the rules is also grounds for disqualification. So anyone that says "I wouldn't call it 'cause he missed" should be disqualified.
BirdieMachine
Michael Moore Fan Club President
The only problem with the one stroke penalty is what if you didnt foot fault and another player calls you on it?
teemkey
* Ace Member *
There is the situation where a foot fault is unintentional: for example, putting from an extreme downhill lie; an insect flies into the player's eye; the player thought he/she was beyond the 10m circle; and, of course, a simple loss of balance. Consider also that new tournament players may not have the rules straight (e.g. standing on their marker, the 12cm limit & line of play criteria).
I'd suggest 95% or so of the violations are from legitimate causes such as the above. The warning is fair and just; however, when the assumption of good intentions is codified, some people will exploit that assumption and show the group their douchebag soul. Make note, and treat others as they deserve.
I'd suggest 95% or so of the violations are from legitimate causes such as the above. The warning is fair and just; however, when the assumption of good intentions is codified, some people will exploit that assumption and show the group their douchebag soul. Make note, and treat others as they deserve.
Exactly.
I'm not sure if its allowed, but you shouldnt be able to call a foot fault on yourself.. Its your job to throw within the rules in the first place.
New rule 802.04 F states: "Any throw made from an illegal stance is disregarded. A re-throw must be taken from the original lie, prior to subsequent play by others in the group"
And 802.04 E states: "A player shall receive a warning for the first stance violation in the round. Subsequent stance violations in the same round shall incur a one-throw penalty. Stance violations may not be called or seconded by the thrower."
Pretty clear in language that eliminates any loopholes. Any foot fault anywhere requires a re-throw, and first one is a warning, second one is a penalty, and stance violations cannot be called by the thrower. This also reinforces players requirement in tournament play to watch and call all violations.
- Joined
- Oct 14, 2008
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Really, this one was easy.
As joegraham says, you can't call a FF on yourself, anywhere, anytime.
As joegraham says, you can't call a FF on yourself, anywhere, anytime.
So, if the foot fault is "unintentional" it isn't really a foot fault? Of course it is.
If you break a rule, you break a rule. If you have that downhill a lie, be careful. If an insect flies into your eye and that somehow makes you foot fault (I don't know why it would), it's just bad luck. You still foot faulted. And if you stand on your marker, learn the rules before you compete. And if someone was standing on their mini preparing to throw I'd stop them before they threw their disc.
If someone loses their balance, tough. Don't lose your balance. If someone's near the circle's edge, ask before you throw.
There's a weird attitude in disc golf about the rules. Way too much "blame the person who enforces them" and not enough personal accountability.
pmatt1969
Eagle Member
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2012
- Messages
- 522
I agree.
teemkey
* Ace Member *
And the rule is the first one is a warning. Do you want to follow the rules or not?
Perhaps you are right at the more skilled levels of play -- though when Locastro called GG, the warning/rethrow had definite consequences.
However, to grow the sport and get casuals more interested in tournament play (particularly lower skill divisions in c-tier & unsanctioned events), the warning is a much gentler way to introduce the rulebook. Gotta tell you that being around a bunch of authoritarians is not a pleasant place for most dg'ers I know.
As stated above pretty clearly, I'd like to see the warning removed from the rules. For reasons laid out above and more.
I disagree. And golf's done pretty well without any warnings. 27 million or so participants in the U.S. alone. Full weekly leagues. The works.
Maybe the DGers you play with should follow the rules. It's not like rules ever really come up much in golf - people know and abide by them when playing in anything beyond their casual rounds.
That's not as clear as it sounds. If a violation cannot be called by the thrower, and a violation occurs, then what?
According to 802.04 ANY THROW from an illegal stance is disregarded. Since the throw was from an illegal stance, it is disregarded. But, since the thrower cannot call his own violation and no one else saw it, he receives no warning violation for disregarding the illegal stance throw.
It seems like the rules conflict with each other in this sense. When it says "ANY THROW", what it sounds like it wants to say is "ANY THROW in which someone, other than the thrower, has called an illegal stance violation"
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teemkey
* Ace Member *
I do and the people I usually play with also follow the rules. But we are lenient with newer players. We will generally first advise the new player of the rule, demonstrate if necessary, before calling a warning. These are players who are not trying to circumvent the rules, they just don't know them.
Let's be frank, you talk to your card, you know who's new and who's not. You see them throw, and can assess their skill level. These folks don't realistically expect to be in the money, they're out there to find out if they like the tournament environment. If they experience a bunch of people trying to find reasons to assess them extra strokes, it's not going to be fun, & they won't be back.
To be perfectly clear, I'm not talking about the players that try to gain an unfair advantage by breaking or bending the rules (aka "cheaters"). Strict rules application and a DQ if necessary for them. The warning is a shot across their bow.
I do note that not calling a rules violation is a violation.
