Lemon Lake and The Red ROC Disc Golf Club

[Noill]

The "you move on" was tongue in cheek.
Sounded funny in a juvenile way to me

Opinions are free to have...my opinion is that your comments are not helpful and lacking robustness. Time and again it's obvious the club is acting on behalf of the community yet the majority response is to stop whining and move on... Bart stated that they did move on... Leagues and other courses all active

 

[DavidSauls]

The PDGA thing is that the Pro Shop gets money to be a regional development center. They hold meetings about PDGA stuff, course design and what not. It seems like a separate issue, but I guess the club thinks the threat of losing that money might make somebody blink. Again, Hail Mary. Again, they have been hammering away at this issue for years, they feel like the future of the complex is at stake and nothing has been working. So Hail Mary it is...

So the PDGA provides an annual grant, not a 1-time grant in 2015?

 

[Bart]

"Again, they have been hammering away at this issue for years, they feel like the future of the complex is at stake and nothing has been working. So Hail Mary it is..."

We actually backed off for a couple of years and extended several olive branches. Mainly the deterioration of the courses motivated the core of the Red ROC club to say enough is enough.

We ran the place for over a decade and qualified experienced folks are available.

This is a big time sink for me. We have exhausted many of the avenues recommended. I really appreciate the comments both pro and con. Do know that we put a lot of thought, effort and planning into this event. There is a background strategy. In the meantime please review this previous post blurb if you question our intents are any thing other than to grow the sport:
Since our ouster from Lemon Lake the Red ROC Club has continued to grow the sport by installing more courses and continuing to improve the ones already in the ground. Freedom Park in Lowell , Rivers Edge in Munster, Riverside in Hammond, Purdue Calumet in Hammond, LRCA Church Camp in Winfield, Countryside in Portage, and 50 Acre Park in Evergreen Park, IL are some of the courses we've built since 2012.

I encourage the Svitko supporters to make their voices heard either here or in some other public forum...preferably one where your have to use your real name.....

So the PDGA provides an annual grant, not a 1-time grant in 2015?
I'm not sure if it is one time or annual....I lean towards 1 time...

 

[Lazerface]

Too much I don't understand here. I think there is enough evidence that the Svitko's sorta suck and are likely far from the ideal people to be running the show.

Who owns this shop? What is the contract/relationship between the Svitko's and the parks department? Lease?

What about the courses? What contract/agreement do the Svitko's have with the Parks that allows them to maintain/manage this public property?

 

[DavidSauls]

I encourage the Svitko supporters to make their voices heard either here or in some other public forum...preferably one where your have to use your real name.....

So the PDGA provides an annual grant, not a 1-time grant in 2015?
I'm not sure if it is one time or annual....I lean towards 1 time...

I don't think there are any Svitko supporters here.

Thanks on the grant, I was hoping Three Putt might know since he mentioned it. It would be better for your cause if it's an annual grant---it would mean the PDGA has a bigger interest, and more leverage if they chose to use it.

 

[Three Putt]

Sorry, the PDGA uses that site to hold meetings and such. I have a friend on the BoD who has posted pictures of the BoD meeting there in the past. I was assuming the host site is compensated for hosting those. I mean, why would you if the PDGA isn't compensating you? I've been wrong before, though.

 

[Bart]

What is a PDGA Development Center?

Sorry, the PDGA uses that site to hold meetings and such. I have a friend on the BoD who has posted pictures of the BoD meeting there in the past. I was assuming the host site is compensated for hosting those. I mean, why would you if the PDGA isn't compensating you? I've been wrong before, though.

I haven't located a guideline or definition of what exactly is required of an entity as a PDGA Midwest Development Center. The word development makes me think you will be required to grow the sport in the Midwest. Now what does that include? Hosting PDGA meetings say up to 5 times a year? ...do you have requirements or guidelines beyond the meetings? One theory is that it was only a title. It was granted to show PDGA progress with growing the sport ie including a midwestern 4 course complex to the PDGA brand....

I'd appreciate some help with this definition...I haven't found any definition for what a PDGA Development Center is required to do other than exist.

 

[Three Putt]

When it was awarded three years ago, Brian Graham said in the paper "It will be a place where we will hold programs, classes and training for tournament directors, course designers and other activities to help educate people interested in improving and promoting disc golf." Then he went on to say the next one would be in Finland. Does anybody know if that happened? Or if this was just an idea that fizzled. There doesn't seem to be any info on PDGA Regional Development Centers on the PDGA site other than an announcement from 2016 about The Directors Cup tournament being held at Lemon Lake that year.

The whole PDGA Regional Development Center looks like a dead end, really.

 

[ru4por]

I agree with David....I don't think there is anyone here supporting the Svitko's here. I think most of us are expressing a lack of understanding as to the entire story.

Here are some of the questions posed here, that seem unanswered. I for one don't know enough to even consider signing a petition.

What do you mean save?

What hostile takeover?

What were the false pretenses?

What does signing the petition do for you?

Who owns this shop? What is the contract/relationship between the Svitko's and the parks department? Lease?

What about the courses? What contract/agreement do the Svitko's have with the Parks that allows or mandates them to maintain/manage this public property?

I'm curious what the "end goal" is in this situation. You want control of the complex? You want to run leagues/tournaments? You want the Svitkos removed? You want to be able to work on the courses?

 

[Lazerface]

I agree with David....I don't think there is anyone here supporting the Svitko's here. I think most of us are expressing a lack of understanding as to the entire story.

Here are some of the questions posed here, that seem unanswered. I for one don't know enough to even consider signing a petition.

What do you mean save?

What hostile takeover?

What were the false pretenses?

What does signing the petition do for you?

Who owns this shop? What is the contract/relationship between the Svitko's and the parks department? Lease?

What about the courses? What contract/agreement do the Svitko's have with the Parks that allows or mandates them to maintain/manage this public property?

I'm curious what the "end goal" is in this situation. You want control of the complex? You want to run leagues/tournaments? You want the Svitkos removed? You want to be able to work on the courses?

I think he has made an effort to 2/3) Hostile Takeover/False Pretenses - they slid there way in there when the main guy walked away and communicated with the Parks - so not false, but obviously fishy in the OPS eyes. My assumption is when it was all going down the club may have thought it would all be OK and they would continue doing what they have always done but the new couple wanted more control than anticipated and this in retrospect the OP is seeing this as "hostile" and under "false pretenses", neither of which are likely accurate representations, but this couple obviously sucks and the whole cop calling incident is borderline hostile I guess.

On the rest, I need the OP to answer each one of those in a short, consise way, or I'm done with this thread and this petition.

 

[deadbody]

Ok, so I don't know if that whole "Be more respectful of the folks who were doing this long ago" was directed in full or in part at me.

But I'm gonna try this one more time.

I'm saying this as a government agent. The type of person you have to convince to change things (the PDGA is gonna be running the same way so lets lump them in there as well)

Your petition is way to steeped in "The Svitko's are wrong and bad people" thats gonna fail on its face. First because your plan (that you need to be pushing at the exact same time) doesn't address replacing them, and second because the Svitko's are who the park board and PDGA have been working with, and they don't have a problem with them.

Put another way, they are friends. If a stranger came up to you and said "Your friend is bad, start being my friend" would you just accept it? What if lots of other people you don't know said it too? I thought not.

The petition idea is fine, but you need to have the action plan in there right away. The thing the PDGA and Park Board fear most of all is if they remove the Svitko's is there someone else to jump in right away.

You need to hash that all out.

Basically instead of dredging up the bad blood, its all factual stuff.

Svitko's took over in 2010 (or whenever I'm not invested enough to get details). In that time leagues have stopped being run (effect on income), course maintenance is no longer being properly done (evidence, photos etc) and a crown jewel course that should draw tourism dollars is not being used to its full potential. All these things also cause the proshop to make less than possible because, duh, people equal money ( wouldn't use the Duh in the write up, pro-tip)

THe solution to these problems is to at the end of the Svitko's lease allow RRDGC to resume control of the proshop and course. We have Bubba Joe Jack who was the original course designer ready to come in and get the courses back to the crown jewel status they were (redesign). We have Frankie Pancakes who spent 10 years in retail management with Waffles R Us ready to take over the pro shop to get it up to the standard set at other retailers (maximizing the revenue for the park board as I assume there is a revenue split). We have Steve Bookkeeper to make sure the books are all completely above board as the 501c3 that is running it is required (you better be a 501c3 it strengthens your case a whole huggy bunch).

We as the RRDGC will commit to running weekly leagues that will draw X amount of players each week, adding $$ to the bottom line for day and annual passes.


Now flesh that out a bit and maybe change the names, but those people for sure need to sign on the proposal so their name is on the contract. Will it change it? Not sure, but thats the best approach, not rehashing old stuff that from the outside (which is how the PDGA and Parks Board will look at it) sounds like sour grapes and nothing more.

 

[biscoe]

Were I involved in a fiasco such as this my thought would be to have taxpayers (players) in the municipality contact their elected officials (not sure if Parks Board qualifies or not in this case- around here it would be County Board of Supervisors) - they are vested in what the voters think to a much greater degree than their underlings may be and perhaps there will be a sympathetic ear there. There still will be a need to show how the current management of the park is misusing the county's investment and how different management would improve that.

 

[deadbody]

Were I involved in a fiasco such as this my thought would be to have taxpayers (players) in the municipality contact their elected officials (not sure if Parks Board qualifies or not in this case- around here it would be County Board of Supervisors) - they are vested in what the voters think to a much greater degree than their underlings may be and perhaps there will be a sympathetic ear there. There still will be a need to show how the current management of the park is misusing the county's investment and how different management would improve that.

This exactly, show how the Svitko's are failing to maximize the money the county can earn, and how you can do it better.

the past is the past.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Biscoe and deadbody are spot on.

 

[Bart]

I will answer these questions entirely as time permits over this weekend...some of them are touched on in the petition post but I do agree clarification is needed...and I will provide....right now I have to take my 86 yr old mother downtown Chicago for lunch with some of her old friends....again thanks for the comments and just caring....Bart

 

[deadbody]

I will answer these questions entirely as time permits over this weekend...some of them are touched on in the petition post but I do agree clarification is needed...and I will provide....right now I have to take my 86 yr old mother downtown Chicago for lunch with some of her old friends....again thanks for the comments and just caring....Bart

Bart, shoot me a PM and I'll help you write it in private.

I'd like to see it succeed. But for it to have a chance it needs to be done better and clearer.

 

[krupicka]

I've heard both sides and there a lot of details missing in this thread. Both have made missteps and sometimes seem like they just like annoying the other. I wish their differences could be worked out. Some of the issues cited are due to decisions (and lack of decisions) made by the park owner. Lemon Lake would be much better if both Red Roc and the Svitko's could work together.

 

[harr0140]

I am curious . . . does the PDGA help pay for the rent on the property? Are there financial factors that the Svitkos are providing that your club could match? Don't get me wrong it sucks you lost your facility and all the hardwork that went into it but if you cannot produce the same things that the Svitkos are . . . why would the parks department work with you?
Why was it turned over in the first place? Who was responsible for maintenance at the park when you were in charge . . . or did the county simply not even know you were doing necessary work out there . . . meaning they don't see anything wrong with the maintenance the Svitkos are doing?

Jus some thoughts about all of this, I wont sign a petition until I know more but its a shame I haven't been down there to visit yet. Maybe Ill make it down soon to check it out.

 

[dehaas]

So to me a couple things don't add up, can't say I've visited the complex...have wanted to but just never made the trip.

The current people maintaining the complex "don't play" but the dude was a member of the original club?

Seems like their "in" was being able to step up and run the pro shop, which coincided with unemployment?

To a complete outsider that sounds like the pro shop was an idea just getting off the ground, and due to unfortunate circumstances they were able to commit to it when nobody else could?

Only seems logical the people who are the face of the revenue generating portion of the complex are the ones the park sides with. That's not to say the volunteer work doesn't mean anything, but it boils down to what value do you have to them?

This is an honest question, is the complex free, or pay to play? I'm sure both sides have made mistakes, but to squabble back and forth is eventually going to make the park come to the conclusion that it's not worth the hassle...and EVERYBODY loses. As it stands right now they're siding with who's generating money, even if they're not maximizing the opportunity. If you want change, convince them you can do better.

The good ole days are about over...if it's not a source of revenue the parks don't want a part. With more people playing there are more potential issues (injuries in public parks leading to liability, litter, etc). Gotta show you're worth their time to mess with. The pitch used to be hey, 18 holes is cheaper than a playground. Unfortunately that's not good enough anymore.

 

[LaserGlide68]

Just played Gold and White over Memorial Day weekend. Save for a bit of weed whacking needed around a few Gold tees, the Courses were in great shape. Save for the missing Tee signs, which are allegedly being replaced.