PDGA survey

[Shallows]

A little birdie (OG PDGA bigwig) told me, back when all this debate about transwomen playing FPO started, that if transwomen were banned from FPO it could retroactively affect at least one FPO world champ. No clue if that was pure speculation or insider knowledge, but it might be that transwomen playing FPO is not as new a phenomenon as we think. It might just be a PDGA tradition.

As for transmen playing MPO or other mixed divisions, there's just no reason for them to tell anyone or for anyone to object. So if it's happened, it's unlikely we'd know about it, unless they played women's divisions first and then transitioned. But even in that situation, I wouldn't be surprised if they just changed their names and got a new PDGA number. How would anyone know?

Uh we all know who. They've been posting on here lol. It's not a secret.

 

[medic5888]

Correct, in the USA, blood screening for T levels could easily reach $1k+.
Health insurance may cover it, but insurance is often directly linked to employment.
Have a job? you may have health insurance.
Don't have a job? you almost certainly won't have health insurance.
Being fired for being transgender is currently still a thing (yes, you may sue, but you won't have the funds to win that trial)

Most other countries that show up in the PDGA database with members have a health insurance system in place that is not like that in the USA.
I have had transgender-related health care for over 5 years now, I may have gone out of pocket for about $200 during all that time. I probably over-estimated.

I don't know who you're using for your test levels. Due to mens health not considered important. I currently am on TRT bc I destroyed my own ability to produce testosterone abusing steroids in my body building career. I say this bc a CBC, Test, free test, estrogen, estridrol, total to about 158 dollars every 4 months. That is insane if you're paying over 1k for a testosterone blood test. Insurance does not cover this for me bc TRT is not considered a medical issue for men. Low T causes so much harm to men. I won't go into everything bc that's not the issue.

My issue with your quote is who the hell is charging you so much! Healthcare in the US is complete BS. If the PDGA implies that a transgender woman must show their T level they must provide the means to get them tested just like any professional sport. There are so many parameters to this that just haven't been made and prob need to. I support your decision to transition and 100% am proud of you for doing so and being open. But like anything you can just see it on your side. You want people to have open opinions with out being rude. Healthy discussions is what we need.

Again here I am just playing devils advocate say tomorrow Paul mcbeth said I'm transitioning to a female. How would you react? Knowing he's the GOAT and now will dominate the FPO division.

 

[Arisugawa]

Again here I am just playing devils advocate say tomorrow Paul mcbeth said I'm transitioning to a female. How would you react? Knowing he's the GOAT and now will dominate the FPO division.

This keeps being brought up. So, I'll quote myself from months ago:

1) What if Paul McBeth decides he is a woman and goes on to dominate women's disc golf?

First off, I honestly don't believe anything like this is going to happen. This is all supposition, but my gut tells me that given the state of most medical resources available today, the whole "adult man decides to transition to a woman" is largely a non-issue. Someone who is transgender is likely going to transition much earlier in life than Paul is currently. This was something that happened in a different era when access to medications and surgeries were more difficult. Again, I could be mistaken on this - but I think someone who is going to transition is going to do so as early as legally possible.

But, for the sake of your question, let's say this happens. By the current PDGA rules (which mirror the prior IOC rules), Paul would need to be on the proper testosterone blockers, estrogen supplements, etc, for at least twelve months and provide proper documentation of this before being allowed to compete in FPO. The next question, after 12 months of hormone replacement, what kind of player is Paul? You're asking for data that isn't available. Every player I'm aware of who has publicly spoken about their transition has spoken to changes of strength and power - you should really look at Laura Natagaal for more info - she has documented the difference in her drive distance as well as how far her rating fell as a result of her transition.

What happens to Paul, though? She would still be an incredible player, but I doubt you're going to be seeing 1100 or 1050 rated rounds anytime soon.

Would she dominate? Possibly? Again - most of the time this question is asked, it assumed Paul transitions TOMORROW. A lot can happen to a person in a year, and not just physically. I don't want to speculate too negatively, but I'm not sure how Hannah would feel about this, or the rest of Paul's family. What would friends think? Lack of support can lead to depression and melancholy. It's quite possible Paul wouldn't want to play after 12 months. We don't know.

But if your question really is what if Paul played FPO tomorrow? That won't happen.

This always seems be presented as some kind of trump card - ergo, what happens when the elite of men's athletics decides he is really a she and wants to play with the women?

Again, it's not going to happen. And trying to use this a devil's advocate argument doesn't help the case. It's disingenuous and fear-mongering.

 

[Three Putt]

Again here I am just playing devils advocate say tomorrow Paul mcbeth said I'm transitioning to a female. How would you react? Knowing he's the GOAT and now will dominate the FPO division.

I think I'd react by figuring out how best to support him through what has to be a very difficult decision. If/when there was a return to competitive disc golf, I'd continue that support. I have no pre-determined idea what that return to competitive disc golf would look like, so I'm not all that worried about it.

 

[gingerandhoney]

I don't know who you're using for your test levels. Due to mens health not considered important. I currently am on TRT bc I destroyed my own ability to produce testosterone abusing steroids in my body building career. I say this bc a CBC, Test, free test, estrogen, estridrol, total to about 158 dollars every 4 months. That is insane if you're paying over 1k for a testosterone blood test. Insurance does not cover this for me bc TRT is not considered a medical issue for men. Low T causes so much harm to men. I won't go into everything bc that's not the issue.

My issue with your quote is who the hell is charging you so much! Healthcare in the US is complete BS. If the PDGA implies that a transgender woman must show their T level they must provide the means to get them tested just like any professional sport. There are so many parameters to this that just haven't been made and prob need to. I support your decision to transition and 100% am proud of you for doing so and being open. But like anything you can just see it on your side. You want people to have open opinions with out being rude. Healthy discussions is what we need.

Again here I am just playing devils advocate say tomorrow Paul mcbeth said I'm transitioning to a female. How would you react? Knowing he's the GOAT and now will dominate the FPO division.

I am not in the USA, and am not reliant on the cost-prohibitive nature of USA's health care system. I get my 3-monthly bloodworks to check my HRT regimen comp'ed by my health insurance (for which I pay a monthly premium out of pocket of about $25)

I am telling you, that transgender women (athletes and non) trying to get their bloodworks checked, could easily be charged north of $1k for that.

TRT for cisgender men is not the same as HRT for transgender people; as such insurance declaration codes will be different. I am glad that you only pay $158 every four months.

To any of the USA-based transgender people in here on HRT, how much do your bloodworks cost you?
And no, don't answer that, unless you're super out to the world.

I am all for open discussion; that's why I constantly put my name and face out there; for it to be stomped on by people who disagree with me siomply for being me; not even for what I say.
I find it discussion-ending that you claim I can only see things from my side. If you have followed any of the Nederlandse Frisbee Bond, PDGA Europe, and PDGA work I did and put my signature on, you'll notice that I do not "just look at it from my side", let alone "make policy that would help me".
I am not claiming that you say that, but I have been accused for it way too many times.
Before you intend to claim that, let me stop you in your tracks.

As for the whataboutism to end all whataboutisms, Paul McBeth saying they are transgender,
Already the fact that you still refer to Paul McBeth as "he" in that hypothetical shows the disingenuity of the question, but I'll respond nevertheless.

I'd welcome that person with open arms; and first of all ask them for the name they'd prefer me to use, and which pronouns they go by.

As for being allowed to compete in gender-based divisions, there's requirements (which may change over time, like they did between 2010, PDGA's first policy, and 2019, PDGA's current policy, and might again soon) to meet.
Once met, elegibility is there, and access to gender-based divisions granted.
Domination is only assumed.

Factoid blurbs from personal experience:
I used to be able to throw about 380-390ft usable distance prior to transitioning.
That's dropped to about 290-300ft now.
In my line of work, on stage as a technician, I am used to carrying heavy flightcases; I used to be able to "man-handle" (how ironically sad to even call it that way) cases up to 300lb; I barely manage to do that with cases in the 150-200lb range now.

You personally know the enabling characteristics of T using steroids.
I am pretty sure you experienced the disabling characteristics that T depletion causes; otherwise you'd not be on TRT now, to help fight those effects.

 

[Three Putt]

A little birdie (OG PDGA bigwig) told me, back when all this debate about transwomen playing FPO started, that if transwomen were banned from FPO it could retroactively affect at least one FPO world champ. No clue if that was pure speculation or insider knowledge, but it might be that transwomen playing FPO is not as new a phenomenon as we think. It might just be a PDGA tradition.

As for transmen playing MPO or other mixed divisions, there's just no reason for them to tell anyone or for anyone to object. So if it's happened, it's unlikely we'd know about it, unless they played women's divisions first and then transitioned. But even in that situation, I wouldn't be surprised if they just changed their names and got a new PDGA number. How would anyone know?

Uh we all know who. They've been posting on here lol. It's not a secret.

If the OG PDGA bigwig is talking about the rumor I'm thinking of, you are talking about entirely different people. There was a rumor so long ago that only a handful of people on this board could possibly remember. I have no idea if the rumor is true (and I've always assumed it wasn't) so I'm not going to repeat it.

 

[jenb]

If the OG PDGA bigwig is talking about the rumor I'm thinking of, you are talking about entirely different people. There was a rumor so long ago that only a handful of people on this board could possibly remember. I have no idea if the rumor is true (and I've always assumed it wasn't) so I'm not going to repeat it.

Yeah it was ten years or more when the remark was made, so I doubt it was referring to any of the more recent players.

 

[gingerandhoney]

Leave them be.

 

[Three Putt]

Leave them be.

That's kinda why I would be confused if anyone said a future policy would effect anything that happened in the past. Whatever happened in the past, nobody broke any rules or did anything wrong at the time. What purpose would it serve to go back and retroactively remove an old championship? That would be hateful and vindictive.

 

[medic5888]

I am not in the USA, and am not reliant on the cost-prohibitive nature of USA's health care system. I get my 3-monthly bloodworks to check my HRT regimen comp'ed by my health insurance (for which I pay a monthly premium out of pocket of about $25)

I am telling you, that transgender women (athletes and non) trying to get their bloodworks checked, could easily be charged north of $1k for that.

TRT for cisgender men is not the same as HRT for transgender people; as such insurance declaration codes will be different. I am glad that you only pay $158 every four months.

To any of the USA-based transgender people in here on HRT, how much do your bloodworks cost you?
And no, don't answer that, unless you're super out to the world.

I am all for open discussion; that's why I constantly put my name and face out there; for it to be stomped on by people who disagree with me siomply for being me; not even for what I say.
I find it discussion-ending that you claim I can only see things from my side. If you have followed any of the Nederlandse Frisbee Bond, PDGA Europe, and PDGA work I did and put my signature on, you'll notice that I do not "just look at it from my side", let alone "make policy that would help me".
I am not claiming that you say that, but I have been accused for it way too many times.
Before you intend to claim that, let me stop you in your tracks.

As for the whataboutism to end all whataboutisms, Paul McBeth saying they are transgender,
Already the fact that you still refer to Paul McBeth as "he" in that hypothetical shows the disingenuity of the question, but I'll respond nevertheless.

I'd welcome that person with open arms; and first of all ask them for the name they'd prefer me to use, and which pronouns they go by.

As for being allowed to compete in gender-based divisions, there's requirements (which may change over time, like they did between 2010, PDGA's first policy, and 2019, PDGA's current policy, and might again soon) to meet.
Once met, elegibility is there, and access to gender-based divisions granted.
Domination is only assumed.

Factoid blurbs from personal experience:
I used to be able to throw about 380-390ft usable distance prior to transitioning.
That's dropped to about 290-300ft now.
In my line of work, on stage as a technician, I am used to carrying heavy flightcases; I used to be able to "man-handle" (how ironically sad to even call it that way) cases up to 300lb; I barely manage to do that with cases in the 150-200lb range now.

You personally know the enabling characteristics of T using steroids.
I am pretty sure you experienced the disabling characteristics that T depletion causes; otherwise you'd not be on TRT now, to help fight those effects.

I agree 100%. Like I said I like to have open discussion from everyone without someone getting offended. I will be the first to tell you I don't know or understand the he/him thing. If I say something out of context its not on purpose. I am just stating things we can do to try and help. You said it yourself your strength and ability to throw have decreased. With that being said do you agree that the pdga should pay for blood testing? Insurance will not cover anything for my TRT. Yes the fallout of depression and anxiety was debilitating prior to TRT. Im not disagreeing with you. I just feel if I decided to play fpo and my test levels are in the 1000s I should not be allowed to play.

 

[gingerandhoney]

That's kinda why I would be confused if anyone said a future policy would effect anything that happened in the past. Whatever happened in the past, nobody broke any rules or did anything wrong at the time. What purpose would it serve to go back and retroactively remove an old championship? That would be hateful and vindictive.

So, that begs the question, who would say that a possible future policy should retroactively affect former results in the first place?!?!?

And secondly, why should they?!?!

If so, it would only mean that as per the then-current rules, it was allowed. No more.

Would Bradley Wiggins Jr. and Jennifer Allen be stripped of their world records retroactively (and see them stripped from history books) if the WFDF made the decision to no longer allow wind-assisted world records?
(See track & field, where wind-assisted records are not officially recognised; or swimming where certain suits did allow - for some time - for world records to be set).
No, there'd just be a line in the sand; drawn below Bradley's and Jennifers records, with an asterisk , that any record up to then did recognise wind-assisted distances.

 

[gingerandhoney]

I agree 100%. Like I said I like to have open discussion from everyone without someone getting offended. I will be the first to tell you I don't know or understand the he/him thing. If I say something out of context its not on purpose. I am just stating things we can do to try and help. You said it yourself your strength and ability to throw have decreased. With that being said do you agree that the pdga should pay for blood testing? Insurance will not cover anything for my TRT. Yes the fallout of depression and anxiety was debilitating prior to TRT. Im not disagreeing with you. I just feel if I decided to play fpo and my test levels are in the 1000s I should not be allowed to play.

With the onus of the player making sure the player signs up for and is eligible for the division they sign up for, it would be contrary to that to assume or mandate the PDGA pay for blood works to be done in this regard.
Having said that, the PDGA may decide to pay for these; it would be weird though, as the "cost-prohibitive nature" of these, is most likely limited to the USA, while the PDGA is a (albeit USA-based) global organisation.

Testing for PED's (in and in-between games), as per WADA, is a different animal altogether.

You don't "if I decided to play FPO" (I've seen this question arise way too often, so I'll jus texplain the process again); that absolutely mitigates (and possibly - maybe intentionally - ridicules; hint: watch "Disclosure", the Netflix documentary on how media plays a terrible role in this) the trials and tribulations a transgender person goes through, before even getting to that stage.
In most countries and states, the process goes as follows:
and let me remind you, that is AFTER that person suffers gender dysphoria to such an extent that the pressure inside has built up so much that it is break or bust (because of societal non-acceptance and ridicule), that the person decides to act, and take affirmative action:

- reach out to GP, referral to gender therapist
(tick tock.. this is where waitlists apply; could be anywhere between several month through several years)
- therapy takes place (months, years, it depends)
- green light for access to medical treatment
(tick tock.. this is where waitlists apply; could be anywhere between several month through several years) - in my country, deemed a socialist and progressive free-for-all Sodom and Gomorrah by certain people, average waitlist is 2.2 years!!!
Now I will focus exclusively on the transition as it relates to sports and how sports regulate eligibility
- start of Hormone Replacement Therapy
- if gonadectomy and/or gender-affirming surgery is desired, at the very least 12 months of HRT is required, after which, you guessed it...
(tick tock.. this is where waitlists apply; could be anywhere between several month through several years)

Now, let's assume that the person wishing to compete in FPO has met EITHER or BOTH of those requirements (T low through HRT || T low through gonadectomy)
* If that person previously played disc golf while their gender marker in the PDGA database was "M", they need to start reclassification request process.
If approved, eligibility follows.
* if that person either never played disc golf, never was a PDGA member, or already signed up with gender marker "F", they do not need to ask for a gender-reclassification, and may proceed.

BUT, and I hear the "but why didn't they have to report as transgender before?!?!"
Because cisgender women don't need to report their being cisgender either!!!

The difference lies with "in case that transgender person (without, prior to, beyond gender-reclassification) is reported to the PDGA for possibly not being eligible", the actions the PDGA would take vary, and take affirmative action where needed.
I can not stress this enough!!! Only if actual PROOF of said ineligibility be provided.
Frivolous accusations "Well, but they have short hair and broad shoulders, and throw 400ft!?!?" are binned, just like accusations that James Conrad has a competitive advantage for being allowed to use all of the space tor their run-up.

 

[gingerandhoney]

BUT, and I hear the "but why didn't they have to report as transgender before?!?!"
Because cisgender women don't need to report their being cisgender either!!!

A growing number of USA states is treading into super dangerous and questionable human rights territory, as they - in order to pre-emptively disallow transgender women access to sports - are passively throwing cisgender women (who just happen to not fit the 1950's Hallmark depiction of the perfect housewife) under the bus.

 

[txmxer]

So, from the PDGAs perspective. Player signs up as F and is allowed to play in F divisions.

Only catch would be if someone provided PROOF the person does not meet F qualifications.

What is the F qualification(s)? Low T.

Someone would need access to a current medical record which is private?

 

[gingerandhoney]

So, from the PDGAs perspective. Player signs up as F and is allowed to play in F divisions.

Only catch would be if someone provided PROOF the person does not meet F qualifications.

What is the F qualification(s)? Low T.

Someone would need access to a current medical record which is private?

What someon's T levels are, is largely unknown; I doubt you know your own levels, let alone that of a random stranger. T levels are not needed as proof of presumed ineligibility.

HIPAA absolutely prevents that from happening.

FWIW:
cisgender men's T levels would most certainly be too high; any level below 10 nmol/L would cause medically verifiable symptoms for them.
transgender women's levels *may* be too high. (if they're on HRT or have had gonadectomy, it's very likely their levels will be as low, or lower than that of cisgender women)
cisgender women with reproductive organ or thyroid diseases's levels *may* be too high. Several of these, like PCOS and hypothyroidism result in T levels spiking.

Knowing someone's T levels says little without knowing WHY those levels are what they are.

Proof that the PDGA would act on, could be anything, as long as it's compelling:
"player X shared on a public forum (ie. verifiable for third parties) they're transgender" is.

"player X, called Sam, was sometimes referred to as Samuel" is not.
"player X, I think they were in my class, and they appeared male at the time" is not.
"player X has a low voice" is not.
"player X throws 400ft+" is not.

On how and why that second list of assumptions is not and should not (aside from not being verifiable); they are completely situational.

I was reguarly called a girl in my (pre-)teen years; secondary sexual characteristics such as facial didn't develop until I was about 18/19. (For all you and I know, I may actually have any variation of DSD).
My best friend - whenever I was a bit slow in getting my room tidied; called me by a girl's name that is similar to my deadname (To insult, from the sexist perspective that women always show up late for appointments).

 

[biscoe]

I have a question for those of you who compete in/are members of organizing bodies in other sports. Do they require any proof of who you are for membership (picture I.D., etc.)?

 

[gingerandhoney]

In Europe, many sports organisations do indeed require photo ID when registering (liability being one of the driving factors).

During my first period as a board member, I already advocated for the PDGA moving towards a "PDGA members need to verify their identity" (combined with "only PDGA members should be allowed to play in sanctioned events").

 

[davetherocketguy]

So, from the PDGAs perspective. Player signs up as F and is allowed to play in F divisions.

Only catch would be if someone provided PROOF the person does not meet F qualifications.

What is the F qualification(s)? Low T.

Someone would need access to a current medical record which is private?

Wouldn't a doctors note qualify? I have to get those for work when I have an extended medical leave. Something like, "So and so meets requirements for ____" or whatever works for wording. No details just something simple signed by a MD.

 

[dmoore1998]

FTFY: I would like to see this science that determined that post-transition women have a [sic: disproportionate] competitive advantage [sic: over cisgender women in gender-based divisions] in disc golf.

Which is the only science that would justify curbing or banning transgender women from competing in gender-based divisions in disc golf.

Anything that is not that; ie.
* Cisgender men have a disproportionate advantage over cisgender women in disc golf is NOT sufficient proof. Transgender women are not cisgender men.
* Transgender women have a disproportionate advantage over cisgender women in sports X, Y, Z is NOT sufficient proof. Sports X,Y,Z are not disc golf.
Is not sufficient proof to ban transgender women from competing in gender-based divisions in disc golf.

See See https://stillmed.olympics.com/media...airness-Inclusion-Non-discrimination-2021.pdf

Not sure I agree about "disproportionate"...disproportionate to what? We have 2 groups. Cisgender women in disc golf, and post-transition transgender women in disc golf. To be disproportionate you'd need 2 things:

1. Another comparison, typically a 3rd group to compare to the control group of cisgender women...that wouldn't make a lot of sense.

2. A measure of disproportionate-ness which is more opinion than science (no doubt you could attach some level of science to it, but the term disproportionate tends towards measuring the DEGREE of difference when we know we have 2 different levels of difference within multiple comparisons.)

Maybe you can elaborate on what you think the other comparison is in order to make this potential competitive advantage disproportionate in comparison?

 

[ChrisWoj]

I have a question for those of you who compete in/are members of organizing bodies in other sports. Do they require any proof of who you are for membership (picture I.D., etc.)?

While it is arguable whether or not pool is a "sport" - the "physical exertion" is such that 90 year olds can run a rack pretty damn well - but the answer with pool leagues I've been in is no. Team compositions and singles brackets are all purely rating based, with no minimum number of female team members in most of the leagues I've played in (exception being mixed-doubles, where there was no verification of teammate sex).

Though, given the way initial ratings are set up - the APA leagues I've played in most teams found it competitively advantageous to have a female team member or two. So there are mechanisms in place to draw in female players. But no, no one was ID'd.