Review pet peeve - blind baskets

[Dave242]

I think that's the crux of the topic. Nobody is debating whether or not blind holes are good holes or not but whether the reviewer should ding a course because of them.

but reviews are written for drive-by players

This is a really good point and something I did not really consider when posting this.

The implication of this though is troubling to me. Implying that courses and course design/ammenities should cater to drive-by players/reviewers is unrealistic. You could go as far as to say that to expect this is pretty selfish.

Having overstated that for effect, I do have to say that something that is very closely related (and I have thought about this a lot) is the experience for first time players who go out by themselves. IMO, good hole signs and navigation (next tee) signs are very important since throwing a disc for the first time is frustrating enough! Good designers should take this into consideration.

It turns out that this would make the experience better for drive-by players/reviewers, but still......not having them is not much of a negative since the vast majority (like 98%) of rounds are not by first timers going out alone or drive-by reviewers/players.

 

[Dave242]

the other thing that sucks is when you can see multiole unnumbered baskets from a tee

Again, this sentiment is very closely related to the pet peeve I started this thread with. I too get get quite frustrated and annoyed when I run into this when playing a course for the first time. But I tell myself, "I'm frustrated now, but next round I would not be since I will have this figured out. How good will this hole seem to me the 10th time I play it?"

Again, there is no reason to rate a course lower due to this sort of issue.

 

[Dave242]

Blind baskets do NOT add skill in my opinion. How can they? You can't see the target so you don't know what line to take. If you get close it is either luck or because you have played the course enough that you know where the basket is.

Blind baskets certainly can add to rewarding skill, but I do agree that they often do not. Being able to visualize the necessary flight path when scoping the hole out from the midway point of the fairway, bringing that visualization back to the tee, and then executing the throw even though it does not "feel" right is a skill. I would even argue that it is an advanced skill.

Holes that do not reward this sort of skill are bending fairways followed by tightly spaced trees followed by the basket. Being able to hit blind narrow gaps rewards randumb luck. Hey, I love that term!

 

[Dave242]

dinging courses because of them alone seems like a drive by reviewer move. if you have a bad time at the course, spent looking for signs and climbing hills looking for the pin, seems to me it is symptomatic of not knowing the course well enough to review it.

Excellently stated! I wish I had thought of wording my pet peeve that way.

 

[Cgkdisc]

From a professional course designer's perspective, a blind hole will get a small or larger deduction. We strive to avoid designing them unless the positive benefits offset the negative of being blind. You'll be hard pressed to ever find a hole on a ball golf course where you can't see the flag on a par 3 from the tee, or from the intended landing area on par 4s or 5s, because it's considered poor design when you can't see where you are shooting.

HOWEVER before objecting, what we consider a blind hole might be narrower than your definition. Our narrower definition for being blind is a hole that is reachable from the tee (or landing area on par 4s or 5s) where the player has no visual guide for where to line up their throw. If a blind hole has visual guides then it can be OK but ideally it should have something else going for it to justify the blindness.

For example, if a hole is reachable but blind on the backside of a hump, there are a few ways to do that. One is to have an extension flag on top of the pin that can be seen. Two is to have a tree that can be seen in the distance that lines up the pin. Three would be a crown on the hump where the line goes over that crown. Unless there's something else cool on the hole, it's not that great because the player still can't gage how far past the hump the pin is unless the visual reference is the extended flagstick. It's even worse when there's OB in play near the basket.

In the woods, it's hard to have any sharper curve routes and be able to see the pin. Usually, I look for clearing out a "peek-a-boo" sight line from the tee where you can see the basket but it's not wide enough to be a route. The other alternative is to have a specific tree that players can see to use as reference where they know if they cut inside it the pin is maybe 50 feet farther.

Blind holes are sometimes necessary and can be done well. But I think some designers might use them as a crutch to add challenge but not necessarily fairness to a hole. The top rated Blueberry Hill at Highbridge has some pins that cannot be seen from the tee. However, every one of them either has a peek-a-boo sight line (3, 4), reference trees (6, 7, 15) or is a par 4 or 5 where the pin can be seen once the player lands in the intended landing areas for their approach.

 

[prerube]

Again, this sentiment is very closely related to the pet peeve I started this thread with. I too get get quite frustrated and annoyed when I run into this when playing a course for the first time. But I tell myself, "I'm frustrated now, but next round I would not be since I will have this figured out. How good will this hole seem to me the 10th time I play it?"

Again, there is no reason to rate a course lower due to this sort of issue.

yes it is, 5 is for best of the best. If the course can use any improvement it gets a 4.5. a 5 star course has good signage and NO FRUSTRATION, unless it kicks your @$$.
If you can't find tee pads or baskets, then the course is not a 5.
there is no point to review courses for people who play them alot, because they already know the course. Reviews are to help decide which course you want to go to when you are in the area.

If you change your mind after the 5th time, that's why their is EDIT

 

[BrotherDave]

If the course is designed well (Castle Hayne comes to mind), blind holes aren't an issue b/c you can easily distinguish the fairway. But if you're looking at a hole with like 3 forks in the fairway, all of them legitimately looking like they might have a basket at the end of them, signs are a must.

 

[prerube]

If the course is designed well (Castle Hayne comes to mind), blind holes aren't an issue b/c you can easily distinguish the fairway. But if you're looking at a hole with like 3 forks in the fairway, all of them legitimately looking like they might have a basket at the end of them, signs are a must.

Castle Hayne was a NICE course, good example. I did not complain about blind holes because it was clear where the baskets were going to be. But the blind holes at Emery in NY did affect my review, I have played that course, it was nice, but would not go back with out a guide.

 

[solomon.trenton]

Castle Hayne was a NICE course, good example. I did not complain about blind holes because it was clear where the baskets were going to be. But the blind holes at Emery in NY did affect my review, I have played that course, it was nice, but would not go back with out a guide.

if youve already played, why do you need a guide?

 

[dreadlock86]

because that course is HUGE and one time is not enough to know the course.
i played there once and i would still probably struggle with navigation the second time.

 

[craftsman]

Excluding multiple pin placements, is it really that hard to figure where the pin is?
I think the concern would fall under defned fairways.
IMO the average user is looking to find challenging courses, down rating a corse due to blind tees is giving the wrong impression. Difficulty, elevation, scenery. That's makes a course. Not tee pads, blind tees, and signs.

 

[Apothecary]

down rating a corse due to blind tees is giving the wrong impression. Difficulty, elevation, scenery. That's makes a course. Not tee pads, blind tees, and signs.

tee pads are huge....

 

[mashnut]

Dave, you've started a really interesting discussion here, and I think you've made some really good points. I've spent some time thinking about it, and here's my take. I like blind holes if designed well, I think they can add challenge and fun if not overdone. I note them in my review, usually in the pros section and the cons section (only in the cons if there isn't good signage or reference points), but for me a course's rating isn't affected by blind pins or the lack thereof. I do like to read about them and know what to expect in terms of navigation on a new course, and so I include them in my review for informational purposes.

 

[Dave242]

From a professional course designer's perspective, a blind hole will get a small or larger deduction.
...........
HOWEVER before objecting, what we consider a blind hole might be narrower than your definition. Our narrower definition for being blind is a hole that is reachable from the tee (or landing area on par 4s or 5s) where the player has no visual guide for where to line up their throw. If a blind hole has visual guides then it can be OK but ideally it should have something else going for it to justify the blindness.

Good points and good clarification.

In my mind's eye I did not have blind holes by your narrow definition. But, I have a very hard time though imagining a hole that is really blind by your narrow definition and how that that increases luck/unfairness.

 

[Dave242]

yes it is, 5 is for best of the best. If the course can use any improvement it gets a 4.5. a 5 star course has good signage and NO FRUSTRATION, unless it kicks your @$$.

An improvement for you, might make the course worse in my opinion. I suppose that is the beaty of reviews.

 

[Midnightbiker]

Blind baskets do NOT add skill in my opinion. How can they? You can't see the target so you don't know what line to take. If you get close it is either luck or because you have played the course enough that you know where the basket is.

I think its fun sometimes if you can't see the basket.

 

[prerube]

if youve already played, why do you need a guide?

It was that confusing

 

[prerube]

tee pads are huge....

Mark the date, I agree with Apoth. Tee pads are not 100% vital for a rating of 5, but they REALLY HELP. They make it very clear where you start. signage is one of the most important thing, I think more important than elevation. you have to know where you are going and where the basket is.

 

[prerube]

An improvement for you, might make the course worse in my opinion. I suppose that is the beaty of reviews.

I don't think signage will worsen a course for you. I do not want blind pins, gone, just a sign that says:
"basket ->"

 

[CwAlbino]

Blind baskets do NOT add skill in my opinion. How can they? You can't see the target so you don't know what line to take. If you get close it is either luck or because you have played the course enough that you know where the basket is.

I very much disagree. My first ace was on a blind hole in which I'd never played before. I stepped up and looked at the sign to see how far it was. Then walked up and around the corner enough to see where the pin was exactly. Walked back to the pad, decided on the Innova Cro for a forehand shot. Visualizing where the pin was, I aimed up and to the left to allow it to fade. The disc went around the corner, heard it hit the ground (skip) and then CHING!

walked around the corner to see it in the basket. The point is sometimes knowing where to throw the disc and where it will fade to IS skill.