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Rules enforcement from top PDGA pros

One of the most interesting things for me to learn from this thread is confirmation that I am much better at playing by the rules in my average casual round than the top professionals in the sport on a lead card. Some people might read that and say "that means you take things too seriously!" But as we've covered in this thread, the rules really aren't complicated or difficult to enforce.
 
Top pros have made it very clear that they want officials available at all times. So let's explore this.

Since top events are mostly tee times, it would take roughly 25 officials to walk with every group. That's assuming the women and men aren't playing different courses rather the same course just at different times.

Well, if we want this to be professional, we need professional level TD / officials, not volunteers. Let's say you pay these 25 people $150 a day. Assuming they each go around twice, that's about $15 / hour.

This ain't happening...

The easiest solution is to have 3 officials in "zones" so to speak. It wouldn't be as simple as holes 1- 6, 7 - 12, 13 - 18, rather would be course specific. You would need to map out geographic zones for coverage as in most cases, it would makes sense zone 1 is holes 1, 2, 12, 16 17 and 18, for example.

Let's assume we have two courses, so we need 6 officials. Three days. Plus the official would need a day to learn the holes they are reviewing (you don't want them doing this blind). So now you are paying 6 people $600.

Total, so far, out of the tournament / PDGA budget - $3,600.

Well, we want this to be professional, right? So we aren't calling our local TDs. We are bringing in vetted TD's from the region that the PDGA selects. So let's assume none of them fly and the average person drives 250 miles to the event. They also use 100 miles of their car during the event. So that's 600 miles. 57.5 cents per mile is the IRS rate. So that's $345 mileage times 6, or $2,070.

Total, so far, out of the tournament / PDGA budget - $5,670.

Who would sleep on a couch for work? Or an air mattress? Nope. So these people need hotels. They can share. So here's another $350 for a room, or $1,050 total.

Total, so far, out of the tournament / PDGA budget - $6,720

Do you pay for food when you travel for work? Nope. Let's add in another $40 a day for 6 people for 4 days. $960.

So now we have added $7,680 to the tournament / PDGA budget.

If there are 20 elite and majors a year, thats a $153,000 expense. and this assumes no one ever has to fly and there's only 18 holes and there's only 2 courses being used.

And what would happen if that happened? "Why did my membership dues increase?" "Why did the payout for this event reduce?!?"

Yeah, I vote that the players get over it and just make the call themselves.
 
Top pros have made it very clear that they want officials available at all times.

I wonder what pro-active steps the pros have taken to make this a reality in a sport that is driven and supported by mostly volunteers?

Yeah, I vote that the players get over it and just make the call themselves.

This is the right answer IMHO.
 
Top pros have made it very clear that they want officials available at all times.

<citation needed>

It drives me BATS that blanket statements like this are made regularly by people with some representative capacity for the PDGA about the opinions of top pros, touring pros, premier pros, or whatever appellation is your pleasure. I have never, formally or informally, been contacted by the PDGA, DGPT, TDs, or other parties regarding the availability of officials or literally any other preference. The only time I've been able an opinion to those entities is when I've gone directly to them to voice it. That doesn't constitute a sample worth making decisions over.
 
You are free sir, to ridicule.

The water cooler thread I started about law was essentially the same argument as this. Where does authority come from? It's an interesting question, at least to me. It has several answers. The most absolute authority that most of us deal with comes from physical law. It cannot be denied or disobeyed. It can be ignored, but not with impunity.

Other kinds of authority come from society, and they depend on social peer pressure and punitive threat for their power. This is weak authority, since any of us may voluntarily decline to be governed by our peers, and since we can take steps to avoid punishment. Indeed, to the extent to which the punitive arm of society is impotent, it's laws are nonexistent.

Other authority comes from a demonstration of and appeal to rightness. A person or entity that is shown repeatedly to be correct, good, just, or wise will accumulate authority without the use of threats or codification.

Authority can be innate too, as with parents and children. This authority is complex in practice, involving all the facets listed above, and will be eroded and built up in cycles depending on the patterns and choices in the lives of the parties involved.

It is my opinion that PDGA rules seek to serve the goals of rightness, fairness, elegance. That is why I said that they would be more willingly enforced if they were perfect. However, they are not perfect, and in the weak spots have no authority except that weakest of versions, the punitive/societal. The societal pressure to follow the weak rules is very low for several reasons: Many disc golfers are ignorant of the rules and cannot exert pressure. Many disc golfers share the same indifference to the same rules and choose to exert no pressure. It is easy to ignore many rules without often being noticed. This societal weakness undermines the already negligible power of punitive threat.

We can each choose which rules we will accept. I did not spout off in this thread because I like to boast about rule-breaking. I do not break rules because I get a kick out of bucking weak authority. I break rules because it is more interesting and stimulating for me to go through life according to the highest standards I can muster, and to build those standards independently of artifice. In playing PDGA events, my standards involve understanding the principles of the game and of fairness, and respecting my fellow man. Any rules that do not converge with these standards simply cease to exist. I could get away with breaking many more rules than I do and could brag about it here til the cows come home. But then I'd be worse than ridiculous, I'd be a fool.

I was simply stating that intentionally not using a mini in a PDGA sanctioned tournament is, to me, ridiculous. If everyone had your attitude about PDGA rules there would be no PDGA tournaments.
 
I was simply stating that intentionally not using a mini in a PDGA sanctioned tournament is, to me, ridiculous. If everyone had your attitude about PDGA rules there would be no PDGA tournaments.

If everyone had my attitude about PDGA rules there would be far fewer stance violations, no 30 second violations, and a lower percentage of uncalled penalties. There would be no cheating, no ignorance of the rules, no awkward decisions to make about enforcement. PDGA tournaments would not be adversely effected in the slightest.

We're all different. The fact that so many players mark their lie instead of simply throwing from the previously thrown disc is, to me, baffling. That the PDGA legislates that only a particularly sized and shaped object be used for this inconsequential exercise is, to me, highly comical and impossible to respect.
 
If everyone had my attitude about PDGA rules there would be far fewer stance violations, no 30 second violations, and a lower percentage of uncalled penalties. There would be no cheating, no ignorance of the rules, no awkward decisions to make about enforcement. PDGA tournaments would not be adversely effected in the slightest.

We're all different. The fact that so many players mark their lie instead of simply throwing from the previously thrown disc is, to me, baffling. That the PDGA legislates that only a particularly sized and shaped object be used for this inconsequential exercise is, to me, highly comical and impossible to respect.

I take it then, that you do know and understand the reason for the mini marker disc, aka, how it came to be?

BTW, in my area of the country most players don't mark their disc with a mini unless they have to.
 
I was trying to make a funny. Which is another thing in addition to putting I am not very good at.

Well, I took you seriously. A lot of people make that argument. The Statistician recently made his data-based case for marking the lie in particular putting situations. I'm not sure if I agree or disagree with his conclusions, but even if they are correct I am comfortable dismissing them as too insignificant to consider.
 

DGPT asked him the question and he gave his honest answer. I don't blame him.

It's easy for those of us on forums to say whatever we want in virtual anonymity. He certainly isn't the first to call out keyboard warriors.

After his initial, gut reaction, he did acknowledge that he could do some work, too.

I'm still a fan. The way he kindly treated my daughter at the 2015 Worlds meant a lot to me.
 
DGPT asked him the question and he gave his honest answer. I don't blame him.

It's easy for those of us on forums to say whatever we want in virtual anonymity. He certainly isn't the first to call out keyboard warriors.

After his initial, gut reaction, he did acknowledge that he could do some work, too.

I'm still a fan. The way he kindly treated my daughter at the 2015 Worlds meant a lot to me.

:thmbup:
 
Five time world champion Page Pierce unsure of what to do if her disc is knocked further away from the basket by another player's shot:


Good that they played it out like that, provisionals and ask TD later but... this is really basic stuff right? it's not that hard :(
 
Several years ago, McBeth stated in an interview that he would never call a time violation on Nikko, because the longer Nikko stood over a putt, the more likely he was to miss it.

...

So several years ago Paul said he would break rule "801.02 B. Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. ..." in order to degrade another player's performance?

That smells a lot like cheating to me.
 
So several years ago Paul said he would break rule "801.02 B. Players are expected to call a violation when one has clearly occurred. ..." in order to degrade another player's performance?

That smells a lot like cheating to me.

It absolutely is.
 

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