Where Should Pro Worlds Go?

[tomdizzlefizzle]

I have played every course the PDGA chose for the 2009 and 2014 Worlds in KC and Emporia and think Token Creek and Capital Springs can stand with any of those courses. However because of time limits was unable to play Elver or Hiestand but am very eager to road trip asap to play those.

Moreover of the many DG destinations I have played the Mad City Disc Golf Club seems to be very engaged and, I believe, would have no problem hosting a Worlds. When talking disc golf Madison, WI has got it going on.

I disagree completely if we are talking pro worlds. If token and capital were used the round scores would be way below the scores of gold level par. I could see some of those guys shooting in the 30s at capital springs. If you are a 1000 rated there is not a single course in Madison that you will average over a 54 score. I agree we have a great scene and good courses but we don't have the courses yet for a pro worlds. Not yet at least

 

[air show]

I disagree completely if we are talking pro worlds. If token and capital were used the round scores would be way below the scores of gold level par. I could see some of those guys shooting in the 30s at capital springs. If you are a 1000 rated there is not a single course in Madison that you will average over a 54 score. I agree we have a great scene and good courses but we don't have the courses yet for a pro worlds. Not yet at least

Again I can only compare courses I have played that were used in previous Worlds such as Waterworks, Swope, Jones, Blue Valley, etc. and believe Token Creek and Capital Springs are on the same level. Granted Capital Springs is somewhat open but with the tight cut grass I could not keep it in bounds... the rough did me in.

 

[JC17393]

Again I can only compare courses I have played that were used in previous Worlds such as Waterworks, Swope, Jones, Blue Valley, etc. and believe Token Creek and Capital Springs are on the same level. Granted Capital Springs is somewhat open but with the tight cut grass I could not keep it in bounds... the rough did me in.

With the change of Pro Worlds to MPO/FPO only, safe to say the standards have changed significantly. Courses that were part of past Worlds might have been good enough then, but may not be now. No slight on those courses at all, and maybe some might still fit the bill (assuming they have or could have longer tees/pins added), but most of them are/were set up in a way that allowed multiple rounds per day (shotgun starts, ~3 hour rounds). Few true Gold level courses can accommodate that schedule.

 

[New013]

After thought I particularly like the idea of finding top notch wooded courses and balancing them with a solid golf course temp design. Somebody start calling golf courses near Nockamixon.

I'd also like to see a true mountain style course thrown in. If you could do a Black Jack/Harmon Hills combo that'd be crazy.

 

[Buchajs1]

Last i heard there is a course going in on a tree farm right across the lake from Nocky. Golf carts available, great land and a very experienced player designing. Par should end up being a fairly tough 64ish

 

[sebastian422]

I think Pittsburgh ran a good Worlds, but obviously I'm partial towards home. I'd like to see a course go in on a golf course around the area, not because I have a huge arm, which I din't, but more variety. The new course going in, which will be World's level, is still wooded. Another open course would go a long way. Secret goal of mine is to have AM Worlds here in 2020.

Not to derail but.. New course!? Where??

I heard J. Gary on a podcast this past winter saying he had plans for a (couple?) new courses in the area, but he wouldn't spill any details. So awesome to hear.

 

[sidewinder22]

Frost Valley and Mine Kill or Warwick would be epic.

 

[Steve West]

I disagree completely if we are talking pro worlds. If token and capital were used the round scores would be way below the scores of gold level par.

Wait, what? Shouldn't that be impossible?

...If you are a 1000 rated there is not a single course in Madison that you will average over a 54 score....

Oh, I see. No such thing as a par 2.

But, wait, isn't one of those 27 holes? That one would probably average over 54.

 

[runningDoc]

Frost Valley and Mine Kill or Warwick would be epic.

Warwick is less than an hour away from FDR state park .... new york city adjacent worlds?

FDR can be easily modified to gold level (the inner wooded nine is almost there).

any way to get warwick to finally host a major/worlds is good though.

both are public courses that are very busy in the summer though...

 

[Dr.Smooth]

Pittsburgh World's looked as good as any courses I've seen. Plus it is near a metro for spectators. Almost seems like a no brainer.

Wonder how master's will go in Grand Rapids? Michigan has a huge dg scene so you can bet their will be a gallery.

Hosting the world's in the middle of summer in Georgia. Not a good idea. You can thank the PDGA on that brilliant move.

 

[tomdizzlefizzle]

But, wait, isn't one of those 27 holes? That one would probably average over 54.[/QUOTE]

I consider the new nine at token a different course. Should be labeled 1-9.

 

[Voodoo Magic]

I mean, if a compelling bid was put in by a club in another country I don't see why not. Although I don't think there's really anywhere else in the world besides the US with enough courses already in the ground and of the right caliber for it to work, that I'm aware of anyways (of course, temp courses can be constructed and what not). I'm sure the PDGA would be willing to look at bids from other countries that met the criteria.

Plus then you get into the logistics for all the US players to get over there etc etc.

And then the Euro Masters/Open has kind of been the European version of the Worlds here.

And then as I've said before, the USDGC really is what functions more as the actual World Championships with how large the International Field usually is there, its single course and relatively solid date etc.

So no, there really isn't a set in stone reason why, and I feel like the current format definitely makes it easier for a club in a foreign country to put in a bid and for the logistics of the PDGA to work out hosting it over there.

Given the Beast will still be playable in the near future, the Tampere area will soon have two championship level courses with adequate facilities. That would be the perfect location for the first official world championships in Europe.

I don't see US players traveling overseas for worlds being a problem because most top players already come here every year. It'd be an incentive for a bit larger North American turnout if anything.

Like Risto said, Finland, and Tampere specifically, should be able to host World Championships in very near future. Personally I think it'd be a big step for the sport to have its first Worlds outside of the United States. It's time.

 

[araytx]

Exactly. As Nova P said in another thread that maybe it's time to wean ams off of large player packs and maybe it's time to wean the pros and PDGA off of their rather high event and payout expectations of these volunteer clubs.

Here's a thing...Maybe I've missed it but never once have I seen a shred of appreciation for all the volunteers that make the PDGA what it is from either HQ or the pros themselves who, by the way, are making a living off the backs of those volunteers.

Then again...maybe the appreciation is out there. I just haven't seen it - yet.

Think of the joy of hosting a PDGA world championship...raising all that added cash by going to local businesses and basically begging...then having the kick in the family jewels of having to deal with all those whiny pros complaining about the people walking behind the basket 100 yards away while trying to make a 15' putt all while being unpaid for your time...yeah, I'll pass.

Point is, as an outsider to these events looking in...it appears to me that the PDGA really needs to start creating incentives for people to volunteer to host these events. Are there any incentives?

Hmmmm. As I recall from that thread Nova was basically saying that Ams being "weaned off the huge player packs" was a way to simply pour more of the AM money into the pro purse. Two major problems therein -- 1) clearly it wouldn't have any effect on pro-only events; and 2) why would the PDGA, a player-driven organization, choose a model which negatively effects 90% or its members? Talk about not making sense. At least Nova alluded to the fact that he was biased because that idea help himself individually.

 

[Casey 1988]

I can think of a few.

I can think of one in South Dakota that would be good however it is the only course in the area, the in town course might be gone as about 3 or so baskets got smashed beyond use. That is Aberdeen South Dakota and they have a course at Richmond Lake State Park that is challenging to even pros. Now another place I could think of is going back to highland park course and area to play in Madison Wisconsin, a few courses there are tough tough. I have also thought of the Twin cities area, even using a mostly Cone course in the area to make a short course challenging. I have never played a cone course before but from what I researched Putting on one is very tough and best to have a lighter lid type disc or kneel down type putt to hit the lower part of the cone. Another place I have seen is used in a top A tier event in Colorado on a ski resort, the other courses are nearby in Fort Collins that has from other people first hand some of the tougher type disc golf courses.

 

[sjberry2017]

So here's a tangent thought:

Where do you think a new complex built to host Worlds could be successful?

My vote is Maine. The locals there are already used to pay-to-play, I'd imagine land is somewhat inexpensive since not many people live there, the summers there are mild, and the elevation and woods seem plentiful and interesting enough to find a parcel of land to build two courses.

 

[JC17393]

So here's a tangent thought:

Where do you think a new complex built to host Worlds could be successful?

My vote is Maine. The locals there are already used to pay-to-play, I'd imagine land is somewhat inexpensive since not many people live there, the summers there are mild, and the elevation and woods seem plentiful and interesting enough to find a parcel of land to build two courses.

We've got the courses already, including many multi-course complexes, though none boast two Pro Worlds level courses on the same site. Those that have one, or something close to it, have an easier course to go with it that is unlikely to be modifiable to Gold-level even on a short-term basis. So ideally, for existing facilities, it would have to be a pair of them somewhat nearby each other. That we have.

The biggest roadblock here is really lodging. There are plenty of areas with the hotel capacity (we do call ourselves Vacationland), but none that are really ideally located for access to the courses. Even if you're talking building a new course facility with two Gold-level courses, the cheap and plentiful land is still not going to be located all that close to more populated areas that will have sufficient lodging options.

Just as an example, we hosted US Women's up here last year. Sabattus was an ideal single host facility for this event because they have two very good courses to challenge the women. The town of Sabattus itself has less than 5000 residents (no "downtown", no hotels, no restaurant scene, etc). The host hotel ended up being one that was 30-40 minutes away from the course. There may have been hotel options closer, but even those were a minimum of 15 minutes from the course, and didn't have the conference center/reception facilities we needed (players meeting, etc).

I think we could host another US Womens or the Selinske using a similar model at any of our multi-course facilities, but Worlds is a different beast all together.

 

[JC17393]

Oh, and I just don't see a facility with two Gold-level courses (and nothing else?) being financially viable anyway, even up here in pay-to-play country. The bulk of revenue for our courses comes from the run of the mill recreational players. They might play an 8000+ foot monster course once, but they won't be back all that often. But a course in the 5000-6000 foot range where SSA falls in the 46-52 range...that's your money maker.

 

[Cgkdisc]

U.S. Masters is a huge field this year so far at 391 http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/31365
more than double the new Master Worlds at 151: http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/31370

 

[JC17393]

U.S. Masters is a huge field this year so far at 391 http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/31365
more than double the new Master Worlds at 151: http://www.pdga.com/tour/event/31370

Difference there, of course, being the amateurs. I count 174 pros at Selinske including some reserved spots, which isn't all that far off Masters Worlds. The Selinske also has the benefit of no qualifying requirements to sign up, aside from being a member.

 

[biscoe]

Plus Selinske is in DesMoines where there are a bunch of good courses and Masters Worlds is in Grand Rapids where there are not. (the private courses excepted)