"amateurs", cathegories, how can we improve them?

[bnbanbury]

You don't want to be beat by 990 advanced players, and those 990 advanced players don't want to donate to 1040 pros, or don't want to play open for some other reason. Why are your desires more important than theirs?

I don't understand. The point of my post is that people's feelings about high rated ams is not necessarily related to losing to them. I don't state my any desires in my post

 

[filobedo]

You don't want to be beat by 990 advanced players, and those 990 advanced players don't want to donate to 1040 pros, or don't want to play open for some other reason. Why are your desires more important than theirs?

How often are 990 am players having the opportunity to play 1040 rated players consistently unless they are touring as an am? In my area many of the higher 900 rated am players play 10 - 20 events annually and I doubt their would be more than a couple of opportunities to play against 1040 rated players if any other than in Charlotte or Augusta occasionally. They generally play in the Southeast against ams rated 930 and higher.

 

[1978]

Sandbagging is the act of artificially lowering your rating to get into a division in which you would not normally compete. again, why doesn't everyone agree with the simple assumption that sandbaggers exist and that the name "sandbagger" directly implies its an unethical practice? I assumed the entire spectrum of system changes written about earlier in this thread was with the acceptance of the existence of sandbaggers!? Why would somebody post in a thread about systems to solve sandbagging and then postulate that they don't exist or that its ethical?

I have a friend that talks like this. I never know when he is sarcastic. From this post i take it that you cannot be a sandbagger if you don't try to decrease your rating...thus, the outcry against sandbagging is unfounded because there are few if any sandbaggers.

 

[mashnut]

I don't understand. The point of my post is that people's feelings about high rated ams is not necessarily related to losing to them. I don't state my any desires in my post

You're right, I didn't read your post carefully enough, I should have distinguised what your were saying from a lot of earlier posts that did come at it from the side of not wanting to see high rated players "beating up on" the folks at the bottom of advanced.

I'm not sure I quite understand your point. You're saying that those players should move up because they're not getting the competitive experience they could be and other people are worried for them? I doubt there are too many people out there who only want other people to move up because it's what's best for the other person.

 

[Huckfreely]

Maybe we should identify pro's differently.
World class 1000+, Regional Pro 970+ and Local Pro 950


To a person out side of disc golf any yahoo with a bag full of disc looks like a Frisbee professional.

 

[mashnut]

Maybe we should identify pro's differently.
World class 1000+, Regional Pro 970+ and Local Pro 950


To a person out side of disc golf any yahoo with a bag full of disc looks like a Frisbee professional.

I mentioned this above, but those kinds of classifications are really different in different areas. In some places, nobody plays up to open at 950, in some places everyone above 900 plays open.

 

[bnbanbury]

You're right, I didn't read your post carefully enough, I should have distinguised what your were saying from a lot of earlier posts that did come at it from the side of not wanting to see high rated players "beating up on" the folks at the bottom of advanced.

I'm not sure I quite understand your point. You're saying that those players should move up because they're not getting the competitive experience they could be and other people are worried for them? I doubt there are too many people out there who only want other people to move up because it's what's best for the other person.

If i were a 990 rated player, which i hope to be one day, i personally would want to take on the challenge of playing against open caliber players. It wouldn't be for the benefit of other players but for my benefit and to make my own game better. I personally don't care if people decide to stay amateurs, i firmly believe they have the right to do so. I will admit, however, that i don't particularly understand it and i think a lot of people don't (which is fine, i don't have to). I just wanted to add an additional perspective and say that while there are some people who don't want to lose to highly rated ams, some people just disagree with the decision to stay am because that's not what they would do in their shoes.

 

[New013]

if you want to see events run with less or no divisions then go run them or initiate a collection of likeminded people to run them

if you want the PDGA to completely change a process that seems to be working out decently well for them so you like it better then start a campaign to put the people or yourself in place who can make those changes

if you want the divisions to better reflect the skill of players then go create a system which identifies that talent better and present it

if you want to stop getting beat by high rated ams then go outside and practice

be the change you want to see in the world

 

[1978]

If i were a 990 rated player, which i hope to be one day, i personally would want to take on the challenge of playing against open caliber players. It wouldn't be for the benefit of other players but for my benefit and to make my own game better. I personally don't care if people decide to stay amateurs, i firmly believe they have the right to do so. I will admit, however, that i don't particularly understand it and i think a lot of people don't (which is fine, i don't have to). I just wanted to add an additional perspective and say that while there are some people who don't want to lose to highly rated ams, some people just disagree with the decision to stay am because that's not what they would do in their shoes.

Many people don't understand how much work it takes to compete at that high level. Many people dont understand that for our skill level, playing against similar skilled Am's is more than enough challenge and that none of us feels unchallenged. I would contend that you are less challenged playing for the bottom 3rd of the division above you than you are at the top of your current division. There is a difference in pressure on the lead card with a gallery than the 8th card. The experienced gained for me personally at an event like Am Nats or Worlds is WAY more beneficial to my progression than anything I could do now as a full time pro.

For example: For Am Nats, i spent 2 months, running 2-3 miles per day. I work 8hrs a day and drive 1hr both ways, so I had to do this before work or during lunch. A typical lunch was putt on a portable basket in the parking lot with work clothes on, run 3 miles, circuit train for 20 minutes, shower, eat lunch at desk. After work, I snuck through the woods to throw 10 discs up and down the hilliest golf course I could find preparing for holes 2-4.

Im not looking for Kudos, I work for me and me alone. Explain how simply playing against pro's does anything more for my game. I can play with Jeremy or Ricky every day, every round, and I will still max out at 400'.

I was pushed and stretched every shot and every round by every competitor at Am Nats. Its one of the most stressful and challenging events I play regardless of who i played against.

I played a few cards with Cameron Colglaizer in the 2011 worlds. Im basically the same rating, look where he is. Sometimes you have to work your tail off just to stay where you are, and at 35 thats what I am doing... Everyone has their own motivations and few of you internet people could understand them.

 

[disc qualified]

I'm still laughing pretty hard at AndyJB calling Brad Schick a clueless younger person. Solid gold and completely off the mark.

 

[Toro71]

Many people don't understand how much work it takes to compete at that high level. Many people dont understand that for our skill level, playing against similar skilled Am's is more than enough challenge and that none of us feels unchallenged. I would contend that you are less challenged playing for the bottom 3rd of the division above you than you are at the top of your current division. There is a difference in pressure on the lead card with a gallery than the 8th card. The experienced gained for me personally at an event like Am Nats or Worlds is WAY more beneficial to my progression than anything I could do now as a full time pro.

For example: For Am Nats, i spent 2 months, running 2-3 miles per day. I work 8hrs a day and drive 1hr both ways, so I had to do this before work or during lunch. A typical lunch was putt on a portable basket in the parking lot with work clothes on, run 3 miles, circuit train for 20 minutes, shower, eat lunch at desk. After work, I snuck through the woods to throw 10 discs up and down the hilliest golf course I could find preparing for holes 2-4.

Im not looking for Kudos, I work for me and me alone. Explain how simply playing against pro's does anything more for my game. I can play with Jeremy or Ricky every day, every round, and I will still max out at 400'.

I was pushed and stretched every shot and every round by every competitor at Am Nats. Its one of the most stressful and challenging events I play regardless of who i played against.

I played a few cards with Cameron Colglaizer in the 2011 worlds. Im basically the same rating, look where he is. Sometimes you have to work your tail off just to stay where you are, and at 35 thats what I am doing... Everyone has their own motivations and few of you internet people could understand them.

Congrats, Rocky. Wow.

Ballsy, to bash "internet people" (said the guy with 2k posts) for "complaining about losing to people more skilled than them," then turn around and say "it's too hard to compete against players better than me."

My point being, play whatever div you want. But the larger picture is, the competitive governing body's mission shouldn't be to subsidize retailers/manufacturers, and this format does NOT support new manufacturers, it just entrenches the "same old crackers."

Besides, if you 'work for you and you alone,' do you really need more Tbirds?

When you're running around in the woods with a log over your shoulders, listening to 'eye of the tiger,' is it a second garage full of frisbees you're dreaming about?

A much better system for AM competion, IMO would be a governing body with a modicum of organizational skills, to have state-level, or regional, etc, points-based qualifying to earn one's way into bigger tourneys or what have you. Then they wouldn't need some wacked-out arbitrary ssuperssecret ratings system to encourage membership, etc.

If, IF, Am went "trophy only," a reduction in entry fees and less than a dozen division choices would draw as many new players as merch bucks, and would/could still support local organizers. And many more of the better players, who feel they need the extra "juice" to compete, would play for $$, and that would stop the hard ceiling on Adv Am, making the prestige level of competitions actually feature the best players.

 

[1978]

Congrats, Rocky. Wow.

Ballsy, to bash "internet people" (said the guy with 2k posts) for "complaining about losing to people more skilled than them," then turn around and say "it's too hard to compete against players better than me."

My point being, play whatever div you want. But the larger picture is, the competitive governing body's mission shouldn't be to subsidize retailers/manufacturers, and this format does NOT support new manufacturers, it just entrenches the "same old crackers."

Besides, if you 'work for you and you alone,' do you really need more Tbirds?

When you're running around in the woods with a log over your shoulders, listening to 'eye of the tiger,' is it a second garage full of frisbees you're dreaming about?

A much better system for AM competion, IMO would be a governing body with a modicum of organizational skills, to have state-level, or regional, etc, points-based qualifying to earn one's way into bigger tourneys or what have you. Then they wouldn't need some wacked-out arbitrary ssuperssecret ratings system to encourage membership, etc.

If, IF, Am went "trophy only," a reduction in entry fees and less than a dozen division choices would draw as many new players as merch bucks, and would/could still support local organizers. And many more of the better players, who feel they need the extra "juice" to compete, would play for $$, and that would stop the hard ceiling on Adv Am, making the prestige level of competitions actually feature the best players.

Just said it is challenging to play against good am's AND that you learn more by protecting a lead or chasing leaders than not.

I play for me, not to impress you. It is my perogitive to determine what challenges me and what I strive for. I've spent thousands and thousands of hours and $'s building and maintaining the courses you play and brag on like you had any part in it. THAT I do for others.

Discussing my regiment for preparing for Am Nats was only an example of what I personally did to prepare myself. Just an example that an Am event can inspire someone to work hard and be challenged with out having to "go pro." What ever that is. You can poke fun at it, but I did it, and if I hadn't personally done that work, I would have finished 50th this year.

Having 2000 posts means nothing. It makes me no more or less better at disc golf. You can say you throw 500' whether you have 1 or 10,000 posts. It still might not be true...and you can assume or share experiences to what will motivate or challenge someone, regardless of your number of "posts."

 

[New013]

A much better system for AM competion, IMO would be a governing body with a modicum of organizational skills, to have state-level, or regional, etc, points-based qualifying to earn one's way into bigger tourneys or what have you. Then they wouldn't need some wacked-out arbitrary ssuperssecret ratings system to encourage membership, etc.

If, IF, Am went "trophy only," a reduction in entry fees and less than a dozen division choices would draw as many new players as merch bucks, and would/could still support local organizers. And many more of the better players, who feel they need the extra "juice" to compete, would play for $$, and that would stop the hard ceiling on Adv Am, making the prestige level of competitions actually feature the best players.

..and what have you done to push for trophy only events beyond just saying they would be better on the internet you're making fun of while also posting on?

..and what evidence can you provide to back your assertion that trophy only events would draw just as many people and/or benefit the PDGA more than our current system?

 

[TheUnderdog]

First, the term "sandbagger" in disc golf generally does not refer to someone who artificially lowers his rating. We all agree that doing that is unethical and illegal. More often than not, the term is used to describe someone who "should" play up based on some arbitrary determination, which often comes down to how he plays against others in the division. For instance, my rating puts me in the middle of Am 2. But if I consistently played am 2, I would certainly be labelled as a bagger around here because I would win...a lot.

Second, my earlier responses were not about creating a system that "solves" sandbagging, I have plenty of other reasons that I don't like the current system and would love to see it changed (although I know that will never happen).

Gotcha. Understood.

 

[TheUnderdog]

I have a friend that talks like this. I never know when he is sarcastic. From this post i take it that you cannot be a sandbagger if you don't try to decrease your rating...thus, the outcry against sandbagging is unfounded because there are few if any sandbaggers.
__________________

Finally, that's a good response. If the case is indeed that there are so few sandbaggers then the answer to the discussion is still, as I stated from the beginning, to let the TD's/ PDGA/ market forces decide the best way to hold competitions to grow the game.

 

[Toro71]

..and what have you done to push for trophy only events beyond just saying they would be better on the internet you're making fun of while also posting on?

..and what evidence can you provide to back your assertion that trophy only events would draw just as many people and/or benefit the PDGA more than our current system?

I'll take the 2nd question 1st. I'm not asserting that the PDGA needs to benefit in any way from the competitive model. That's bass-ackwards from what I'm saying. In fact, I'm not asserting anything, as I stated, it's just my opinion, not an assertion of fact.

As for your first question, I wasn't 'making fun of the internet,' I was making fun of a previous poster for straightening out "you internet people" in what was about his 2200th post.

Need to work on your reading comprehension.

There's always talk about the public perception problems that DG has. Part of that, in my opinion, is the "everyone's a winner, welcome to the flea market" competitive format.

I also said, if not above, then in the previous thread, that I'm not a tournament veteran, so if the game is such that it needs this format to survive or whatever, so be it. But it's weak, and I don't subscribe to that idea. "You become exactly what you think you are," a smarter man once said. And if this is the general consensus, again, so be it. I like competitive play, and will continue to donate, rather it's an entry fee that supports the promoter, or a fee, part of which adds to some hoarder's collection.

This is what's known as a "discussion" board. Not an "activist" board. The only thing I've "done" w/r/t this format, is I stopped playing in an age protected div, and if I ever become an "advanced" player, I'll play in Advanced, as long as my body permits. Because I prefer not to kiss my sister, so to speak.

 

[mashnut]

There's always talk about the public perception problems that DG has. Part of that, in my opinion, is the "everyone's a winner, welcome to the flea market" competitive format.

I think this is a bit of a silly argument. There's no way that any significant number of people who don't play disc golf have any idea of how we run our events, let alone have an opinion on it. I doubt even the majority of casual players who've never been out to an event have any idea what the divisional structure is.

There's no question that we don't have a sterling public perception, but I very much doubt this is a real part of it.

 

[Toro71]

Just said it is challenging to play against good am's AND that you learn more by protecting a lead or chasing leaders than not.

I play for me, not to impress you. It is my perogitive to determine what challenges me and what I strive for. I've spent thousands and thousands of hours and $'s building and maintaining the courses you play and brag on like you had any part in it. THAT I do for others.

Discussing my regiment for preparing for Am Nats was only an example of what I personally did to prepare myself. Just an example that an Am event can inspire someone to work hard and be challenged with out having to "go pro." What ever that is. You can poke fun at it, but I did it, and if I hadn't personally done that work, I would have finished 50th this year.

Having 2000 posts means nothing. It makes me no more or less better at disc golf. You can say you throw 500' whether you have 1 or 10,000 posts. It still might not be true...and you can assume or share experiences to what will motivate or challenge someone, regardless of your number of "posts."

Honestly, I appreciate all the work you've done visa vis courses etc as much as the next guy. Maybe more so. But the arguments you present w/r/t this debate are circular. And sense I've been in the club for about 10 minutes, I suppose it remains to be seen how much I'm going to do or not do.

And, again, I don't consider you a 'bagger,' and think you should play wherever you want. But you do denegrate those of us with a differing opinion about the payout question as "whiners who lose to better players," which in my case is BS, and it's offensive. I don't care how many courses you've built, you don't get to be more offensive than me, as far as that goes, and if you don't care for my tone, maybe you should read some of your posts sometime.

I don't think the number of posts you have relate in any way to your skill level, which is way beyond mine. I was just saying that a guy with 2000 posts may not want to be so quick to disparage "you internet people," whose opinions are no more nor less valuable than yours, in spite of rating.

 

[New013]

I comprehend just fine.

I comprehend that when people make arguments like you have done I'd like to see at least some fact or basis for that argument beyond "it's just my opinion." Yea this is an internet board for discussion but if people such as yourself are going to call out a way of operation as flat out wrong and then say you have a better proposal without using anything to back it up beyond opinion then I'm going to call you on it.

When TD's and people who are actually out running events tell me it's a better model we can have a real discussion from your side, but until then it's all just speculation on your part so stop acting like you know better when you have no real experience with any of it.

 

[Toro71]

I think this is a bit of a silly argument. There's no way that any significant number of people who don't play disc golf have any idea of how we run our events, let alone have an opinion on it. I doubt even the majority of casual players who've never been out to an event have any idea what the divisional structure is.

There's no question that we don't have a sterling public perception, but I very much doubt this is a real part of it.

Maybe it's nowhere near ready to be called a sport. I'm pretty new to DG.

My only point is, there's no way people are ever going to take a "sport" seriously that glorifies it's 2nd level players.

And that's never going to change if it's a merchandise based competitive format.