East Coast Wooded Monsters

[jimimc]

I'd like to discuss and compare the East Coast Wooded Monsters. I hear the comparisons being made to Iron Hill, Nockamixon, Quaker's Challenge, Nevin, Tyler, French Creek, Patapsco, Renny and Hornets Nest. I've played them all and feel this type of golf is the truest test of power and skill. Each offers it's own take on long wooded holes that can be devastating to scores if your only slightly off your game.

These courses are all linked together in the type of golf it offers, but I think the differences are often over looked. I would like to take the time to discuss the pros and cons of each of these courses.

First is Iron Hill. It's the course I know the best. I'll stick to the Gold layout as it's what the course was built to be. The tee pads and signs are second to none. The SSA is 72 and can frustrate any touring pro. The course has few if any gimmicks. No mandos, no strung out OB. The course can be played in it's Gold tournament layout at any time. No easy deuce holes. The shortest hole is 360'. Tough hole after tough hole from start to finish. 16, 17 and 18 may be the hardest finishing holes in Disc Golf. All the things I mentioned here can also be the draw back. It's tunnel shot after tunnel shot. There's no epic scenery. Unless your playing well and are truly seeing all your lines the holes can begin to run together.

Nockamixon may be the prettiest and most original of the wooded monsters. With the huge rock beds on numerous holes and overlooking a marina on others, it by far is more appealing to the eye then Iron Hill. It also offers more variety of shots. With an OB stream on numerous holes and less defined fair ways the luck factor is a little higher then I care for. That's up to debate. The true flaws come in the tee pads and signs. I've heard there are plans to install concrete tee pads. This is my second favorite. If I could combine Iron Hill and Nockamixon, I'd probably never play anywhere else.

Quakers Challenge is one of the most underrated courses I have ever played. Very tough course with great tee pads. Elevation is used to really make simple holes true test. Each birdie is earned. No gimme holes on the hole course. There are a couple of shorter holes with extremely tight fairways. Much like Iron Hill no epic scenery.

I only got to play Nevin once. It was less then a year old back in the fall of 2010. It impressed me very much. Nice use of elevation and hole after hole was a real challenge. I was really disappointed we didn't get to play it at the 2012 Worlds. Even though I loved the course, once again much like Iron Hill no epic scenery or any open holes that I remember.

French Creek was redesigned a few years ago from 2 18 hole courses to a 18 hole monster. One of the hardest layouts any where. It keeps some of the quality of the old layouts in that it's tight. Maybe the tightest of all the wooded monsters brought up here. A lot of the holes were combined. This gives the feel of Safari golf on a few holes.

I'm not sure Patapsco belongs on this list. It feels much different then the others. Even though it's very wooded, power seems to come into play more then the other courses. The tees are very original, being formed with sand. When raked out properly they are world class. While many holes are more wide open then the others and require huge power shots, there are a few very technical holes.

Tyler is constantly under going change. Joey wants to keep players guessing and always test them. It's the only 27 hole course on this list. Because of this it offers the most variety. OB and mandos come into play are many holes and scores can soar quick. Many of the pins are elevated and a few have death drop offs near them. Even though Tyler is in my top 10 of courses I wonder if the gimmicks sometime take away from the course.

I only got to play Renny once. Like Tyler it seemed like a lot of time and man hours went into the course. It is well thought out and plays tough. The variety of holes and use of elevation put it high on the list. Like Tyler though I felt some of the very things that added to the course took away from it. It felt like some one was trying to add things to make it harder.

The last and probably most famous of these is Hornets Nest. In the Worlds back in 98 this type of golf became acceptable. The variety of the original course is awesome. A few bombs mixed in with gauntlet holes make this a challenge for just about any player. When I played the web though it felt a little confusing and a lot of the holes felt the same. It seemed like par 4 after par 4. 2 par 3's with elevated pins thrown in and no real par 5's.

Let's talk Wooded Monsters. With the future addition of Nocky in the mix of A tiers traveling through the North East next year, will the Pros be able to handle it or will it just be too much for them.

 

[DavidSauls]

One question is whether Renny & Hornets Nest are really considered "wooded". Both have a lot of open or semi-open holes; for Hornets Nest, only the back 9 really fits.

I haven't played most of these so don't have much to add. But one of your comments about Iron Hill is interesting to me:

"Unless your playing well and are truly seeing all your lines the holes can begin to run together."

This is a nagging feeling I have when playing completely wooded courses.

You might also throw the IDGC courses into this mix. Or, at least, the W.R. Jackson course, which is about 10,000 feet, par 68 or something, and entirely in the woods with a variety of fairway widths.

 

[Buchajs1]

Of this list, i have only play tyler and iron. Iron is probably my favorite course yet, it provides an enormous amount of challenge without being unfair. I really enjoy the elevation changes and the variety. Tyler is probably my second favorite course. It is a monster when all in c position, and thats when i enjoy it most.i do enjoy the variety of hole lengths and different shots, as well as the elevation. Both rank a little bit shy of a 5 because of scenery, but the golf itself is great

 

[optidiscic]

The hardest thing to do in disc golf is throw straight...iron hill challenges this skill

renny and nest....a bit too open on most holes to be called wooded

nockamixon is tough and provides landing zones or sweet spots to land on every hole whereas iron hill forces a player to basically stay on a very defined yet tight for the distance needed fairway

nevin and the nc courses are brutal off the fairways that southern growth forces many a pitchout over a spectacular save attempt. I found myself less than tempted in nc to try a risky shot and just pitch out.

Tyler is always evolving sometimes for better or worse depends on your mood

while I appreciTe jimis hatred of oob and gimmicks I find many of them actual tests of skill and strategy

I do agree that oob, whether natural or manufactured and trees is an overly punitive mix. Miss a line by 6 inches at Tyler hit a tree and go oob on a walking path and tell me u still love Tyler lol.

The issue with these courses is that they require throwing drivers in the woods and I'm not sure many disc golfers really understand that until they play these courses.

400-1000 ft shots in the woods that require 350+ of distance on lines to get par

not 175- 250 ft segments like idlewild

 

[jimimc]

If you don't have any trees I get OB, but if I have a choice I'm choosing trees. OB, elevated baskets and man made obstacles seem like your course isn't hard enough and your trying to make it harder. Iron Hill doesn't offer enough open holes not to seem redundant if your playing bad and can't reach the dog legs. If you can reach the dog legs each hole becomes much different, as most are 300'+away. Watch a lefty or someone with a flick like Ricky turn those mid or fairway driver hyzers into booming S turns. I get Renny and Hornets Nest not being totally wooded, but the Web definitely feels more so and if you talk to the West coast golfers both are very wooded.

 

[DavidSauls]

OB, elevated baskets and man made obstacles seem like your course isn't hard enough and your trying to make it harder.

Of course, when I see people extending holes on wooded courses, or adding longer teepads at devilish angles, I think the same thing. Which, incidentally, is not necessarily a bad thing.

Rumor has it that Elon Long (Angry Beaver) is being extended to a high-par course, so might join the Wooded Monster list down the road. It's certainly good the "wooded" part, and is already pretty long and challenging.

I haven't played the Web, just the regular Hornets Nest course. It's very good, but not only do I doubt it qualifies as "wooded", but wouldn't call it a "monster" either.

 

[sidewinder22]

I thought Nockamixon is fairer than Iron Hill, which might be because it's a little shorter, I still think it's a pretty fair course. Iron Hill definitely has awesome concrete tees and signage, where Nocky lacks in that department.

The toughest rounds I'd say I've played are Seneca's 27 at the Soiree, they are long and brutal mentally especially with the ob/2meter rule. I've not played Tyler in all longs, but I imagine it might be tougher than Seneca and find the two courses rather similar. The tees at Seneca are not consistent, some get slick, and others are too grippy. The signage is decent at both, Tyler is a bit better with the pin indication.

I love Patapsco, bomb drivers on every hole through the woods with some nice downhills, Deer Lakes also reminds me a lot of Ptap but not quite as much fun and ends kind of bland. Deer lakes has some nice concrete tees, and Ptap's stone crush pads are my favorite when they are done right, some times they can get rutted or filled with loose crush and be slick. Ptap has no signage, and Deer Lakes has decent signage.

Moraine is another awesome monster in the woods, a little longer than Nockamixon. These two courses remind me of each other, both have an epic elevated view of a marina. There's a lot of great and tough memorable holes at Moraine much like Nocky. Moraine has rubber tees which I thought are fine and what is really great is the 3 tees on each hole for red, blue, and gold level players to have the same par.

Quaker's Challenge probably is one the most underrated courses. It's quite long, tight and has extreme elevation through the woods and the concrete tees are quite nice. Orange Crush is another underrated monster even though it's not quite as long(the listed hole lengths look shorter than actual maybe), it's more extreme with the heavily wooded fairways and it's absolutely brutal with the elevation. Orange Crush is the only course that has brought me to my knees physically from dehydration/exhaustion, but I did play Whispering Falls and both Paw Paw courses the day before. There are some epic holes at Orange Crush. The tees are boxed gravel if I remember correctly, but the course gets neglected sometimes being in the middle of nowhere. The signage is pretty good at both. If Linbrook gets a back nine it could be in talk with these two courses, the front nine is awesome on this newer course.

French Creek is the most monotonous of these courses, the narrow fairway and elevation doesn't vary much throughout the whole course. The signage and navigation is pretty good. Whispering Falls is another wooded monster with a lot of elevation on the original or front 18. Whispering falls has rubber tees and decent tee signs, but navigation is a bit tricky. Both of these courses are very tough with the "fairways". French Creek has very little underbrush so discs are easy to find, but Whispering Falls is a disc eater. These are my two least favs of the wooded monsters.

All that being said, I love all these courses. I've not played any of the NC courses yet. There are two(or 3) courses I hold above these wooded monster courses which are Paw Paw and Hawk Hallow, but that has to do the diversity. Camp Sankanac is another course that excels at it's diversity.

 

[Qikly]

Orange Crush is very much in this category of courses, more so than a course like Moraine, which, while wooded, provides much more of a reprieve than OC, which is literally cut through the woods for the entirety of its 18 holes. From the shorts, it's some brutal disc golf. The longs make for easily the hardest round I've ever seen.

It's a masterpiece of wooded disc golf for sure, with punishing technicality, challenging elevation, and even some serious distance. Exhibit A: hole 10, 612 ft from the longs.

Edit to add: props to SW for getting the OC mention in first. Linbrook is indeed in this category, but OC is on another level both in terms of technicality and refinement.

 

[optidiscic]

Orange Crush belongs on the list. Relentless woods golf with no breathers emotionally or physically.

I thought Seneca was quite monotonous although solid and challenging but not quite as spectacular as iron hill or nocky or nevin

Jimi what's your honest opinion on the oob gold rope at Quakers challenge hole 10 Serves a purpose to minimize cutting corners but damn is it cruel.

 

[BraveThrower43]

I haven't played the Web, just the regular Hornets Nest course. It's very good, but not only do I doubt it qualifies as "wooded", but wouldn't call it a "monster" either.

Web qualifies in my book. Much more wooded with an SSA of 69

 

[jimimc]

The OB at Quakers Challenge serves a purpose. My problem with it and the OB streams at Nocky have to do with the trees near it. Much like you said about Tyler, hitting a tree is bad enough. Hitting a tree then going OB on top of it is like kicking a man while he's down. It's one of the reasons I got rid of the OB creek in between 3 and 4 at Iron Hill. Any chance of getting unlucky and getting an OB stroke just doesn't seem right.

I don't know how I left Moraine off this list. My mistake. I didn't think of Seneca in this category because of the roller factor. Back in the day you could throw a full out roller on every hole. Unique, yes. Not the same accurate drive hole after hole the other courses make you play though.

 

[jimimc]

My opinion on the fairness of these Wooded Monsters can be found in the PDGA results. Check out the scores at the large events played on these courses. Do the best players score the best? Do out of town touring Pros beat the locals at their own game? The more fair the course the more often the better players win. At the DDGC this year the top 8 open spots all fell right into place. The 3 Masters rated over 1000 finished 1,2,3. The top 8 GM also finished almost dead in order to their ratings. This happens much more often then the smaller wooded course were the local little routes become much more prevalent.

 

[gdub58]

not 175- 250 ft segments like idlewild

Please - just because that's the way you may choose to play the course doesn't mean that's the only way to play it. I would imagine that you could throw just about any of the courses mentioned here in smaller, more conservative segments and have a decent round.

Idlewild offers a unique challenge, and I would contend brings more strategy into play then most of these other courses.

There's only 4 holes that you would potentially play in smaller segments - 5, 6, 13, 14 - and those segments aren't easy to hit...

 

[optidiscic]

I enjoyed idlewild actually

my point was it's not east coast monster woods golf

it's not even remotely close

idlewild is cramped on many of the holes and you can put your driver away on many stretches and achieve par. At iron hill or nocky u must throw big driver drives in the woods or u will bogey

Parts of Quakers challenge felt like idlewild to me. Segmented fairways.

It's all dg and it's all interesting but idlewild is nothing like east coast woods golf

 

[jimimc]

One of the main questions I have is, will the touring Pros hit 3 or 4 of these courses in a row? Three of them did 2 back to back. Will more, less or none do 3+ back to back to back.

 

[optidiscic]

There is a handful who are conspicuous by their absence.
My guess is the same trend will continue.
Nocky Tyler Iron series maybe with additional $ for winning the series
call it the nockatyleriron cup lol

 

[Disc Fiend]

There is a handful who are conspicuous by their absence.
My guess is the same trend will continue.
Nocky Tyler Iron series maybe with additional $ for winning the series
call it the nockatyleriron cup lol

I would say call it the East Coast Monster Cup, just like the thread's name lol

 

[MichaelWebster]

I would also add Castle Hayne near Wilmington, NC and Buckhorn near Raleigh.
Castle Hayne is not quite a gold level par, but it is a tough 64 par layout, all in the woods. Buckhorn has a couple of water carries that add to the difficulty.

 

[optidiscic]

Iron Hill has 3 amazing holes with jail trees where a true approach alley to the green exists A feature I find to be my favorite as it requires a perfect shot to get a look at the alley and then a precise approach to get to the green. Holes 2,4,6, are perhaps the finest examples of this I've seen anywhere.

I'm weird and appreciate these nuances as there is no getting lucky here to get on the green. You either execute or you fail. Def a separator of skillevels

 

[BraveThrower43]

I would also add Castle Hayne near Wilmington, NC and Buckhorn near Raleigh.
Castle Hayne is not quite a gold level par, but it is a tough 64 par layout, all in the woods. Buckhorn has a couple of water carries that add to the difficulty.

Both are difficult courses for sure. Not sure that they are the true monsters that these others are.

I love Castle Hayne. It is an amazing woods course but it just doesn't tend to hurt your feelings on the level that Renny, Web and Im sure many of these others do.

Same for Buckhorn.