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Innova involvement?
- Thread starter greg_b_4
- Start date
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
Local pros, especially younger/newer ones, may not be the best designers unless they have learned to design for all skill levels and gained some experience from those who have studied and done it more than once.
I'm just dissappointed that Johnny Sias didn't come check out my course 
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
I think Johnny's last visit to MN may have been for 2001 Worlds.
John Rock
Double Eagle Member
It's not really fair to the OP for us to assume that his design sucks or is unsafe. He has mentioned that he took a lot of time to work on the design. No one in this thread has shown a preliminary design, yet several have already taken the side that he can't do the job correctly. If that was the case years ago this area where I live would not have a course at all because not many "experienced" designers were eager to make the trek out this way.
Let the man at least have the benefit of the doubt until we can visually make the call on safe/unsafe - sucks/not sucks.
Let the man at least have the benefit of the doubt until we can visually make the call on safe/unsafe - sucks/not sucks.
greg_b_4
Birdie Member
I do know its Johnny coming. He is in my home state and have played and talked with him plenty. Just didn't want to throw names out there in original post. This is my first design but I have played somewhere around 60 courses and took great care in the design. First and foremost was safety with course flow coming in second. I think its a good design and am pretty doggone proud of it. Was mostly curious if this was the norm because I had never heard of a pro coming to "ok" a design. I have played many of Johnny's courses and tend to think mine is actually safer than some of his. I stayed farther away from shelters for instance. And I do plan on walking the course with him. I have a course map I would post if I knew how.
greg_b_4
Birdie Member
Im not a course designer by any means but your course looks safer than some i have played in the past. The only qualms i have with it is the placement of the blue tee on 1(throwing over a road/path),7's basket seems to be in between 2 tennis courts( i think that's what that is) 12 and 17 seem to throw over the path as well. Even from the 2D picture the course looks like fun and is better designed than some out by me.
greg_b_4
Birdie Member
Those holes you mentioned do go over a road, buts not a highway, its a 10mph park road that you can see cars coming from quite far away. The basket is between two courts but they arent even used, they dont even have tennis nets anymore. Plus it was really the only way to get from 6 to 8. I made a conscious effort to throw away from shelters, playgrounds, and other activity areas. My main struggle with design was trying to end near the beginning. That strip of land where 1 is is not very wide at all, add into that the lake and there just wasnt room for holes side by side. So the walk from 17 to 18 is farther than I wouldve liked. Another thing about 17, I initially had the basket staying on this side of the road but when walking with the course manager he suggested putting it there. It's not a terribly long course, red is 4700 white 5300 blue 5800. Its more for rec players and new players. This area is severely lacking in courses. I hope Johnny is ok with hole 10, its a very short ace run over a cove of the lake (red 100ft white/blue 170ft). Below 11 is now a wedding gazebo, thats why that area was not more taken advantage of.
greg_b_4
Birdie Member
Anther thing I might add is that map does not do the elevation changes justice. There isnt a flat shot on the course. Holes 7 and 8 especially go significantly downhill. But there were already existing trails to make the hike down them safe. Believe me when I say I took every precaution and all safety into consideration.
Norcal
Par Member
Innova is not liable for injuries resulting from a dangerous course. Of course, they may be sued. Anyone can be sued, but the system provides protections against frivolous lawsuits.
If anything, evaluating and approving course designs may increase Innova's exposure to lawsuits. It certainly puts them in a worse position to defend a lawsuit as they are now arguably part of the design process.
DSmith
Eagle Member
" My fear is the pro will come and either nix the entire project or suggest a lot of changes on a course I've put a lot of time and effort into"
If its a solid design ,why would you be afraid that he'd change it?
If its a solid design ,why would you be afraid that he'd change it?
greg_b_4
Birdie Member
I didn't say it was a rational fear lol
CaptainAnhyzer
* Ace Member *
Hmmmm, our club took delivery on 9 Discatchers just last week and no word from Innova about approving our design or sending a pro out to check on the design.
- Joined
- Jul 29, 2009
- Messages
- 15,726
They might even think of something you didn't consider. I realize it's "your baby" but course designers really need to remove their ego and emotion from the equation - hard to do when you're passionate about something, which most course designers are.
But on almost any project, input from multiple sources leads to a better end result, provided the people giving the input are working as a team, rather than engaging in one-upsmanship, or other non-productive behavior. That isn't to say you won't disagree, but listen to other people's criticisms and ideas with an open mind and remove your emotional attachment, and almost any project will turn out better than it would have had it been done by a single person.
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Toro71
* Ace Member *
Probably shouldn't take it personally.
Innova's likely not just concerned about legal action. Negative perception is probably a bigger concern.
You obviously took a safety first approach, but I'd say Innova just needs to hear it from someone they know to get their warm fuzzy.
Think about it, a theoretical basket that's in a suspect/dangerous location, say near a playground. Concerned parent only has to imagine their kid getting hit, it wouldn't even take an actual 'near miss.' They know nothing about disc golf. All they have is the name on the basket to go home and Google.
Innova's likely not just concerned about legal action. Negative perception is probably a bigger concern.
You obviously took a safety first approach, but I'd say Innova just needs to hear it from someone they know to get their warm fuzzy.
Think about it, a theoretical basket that's in a suspect/dangerous location, say near a playground. Concerned parent only has to imagine their kid getting hit, it wouldn't even take an actual 'near miss.' They know nothing about disc golf. All they have is the name on the basket to go home and Google.
Cgkdisc
.:Hall of Fame Member:.
The best course designs start with an artistic vision that's later tempered by practical considerations.
keith johnson
Birdie Member
Also could be you have designed courses that Innova people /players have seen and they think you know what you are doing in relation to safety and design.
I've designed and put several courses in the ground with Innova baskets since 1996 and never had any need to be pre-approved. Innova players and others that have seen them have sometimes mentioned things that came into play AFTER the course was put in, but then those holes get changed around or removed...Most famous example of mine - in Miami, FL - had 4-5 different county projects added to an area that was exclusively Disc Golf, and holes have been moved or redesigned for the added features......Like a road and skate park in the fairway of hole 1.:doh:
Anyways..... Master Planned or not - Local governments can and WILL change things around to fit THEIR needs - in the end you just hope to have enough space left to keep 18 holes....
Keith
DSmith
Eagle Member
Had this happen to us at a couple of local parks in Lexington KY (Shillito and Veterans). We got lucky though that we were able to move the course around with Parks footing the bill. Not the most ideal scenario to have happen to one of your beloved courses but it happens. You just have to realize that one of the draws of putting in a disc golf course is that it is dynamic and can be moved around if need be. You just have to keep this in mind when designing a course and do what you can to give your course breathing room in case something needs to be shifted around down the road.
