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One part of the future - grass roots schools growth - there are many roads to the same goal.
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Jussi Meresmaa design concepts are...'Meh'
- Thread starter Understable
- Start date
One part of the future - grass roots schools growth - there are many roads to the same goal.
Those kids ARE the future. When I was in elementary and middle school I lived 5 minutes from a course and had no idea what disc golf was. We played ball golf but didn't go to championship level courses bc we would be almost looked down upon. Disc golf cant become that.
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I don't understand?
Why can one not exist with the other? Noone is suggesting every course should be a par 72 championship course that are designed only for the top 0.5% of PDGA members. The Majors probably should be though and the rest of us would like to have a hack around them to see how we fair. I've played a couple of Ryder Cup courses with my 200 yard if i'm lucky slices down the fairway and 3 or more putts on every green, they destroyed me utterly but damn it was fun trying.
DiscGolfPark as I understand it put in a lot more 9 hole courses and schools courses than they do 18 hole championship behemoths.
Why can one not exist with the other? Noone is suggesting every course should be a par 72 championship course that are designed only for the top 0.5% of PDGA members. The Majors probably should be though and the rest of us would like to have a hack around them to see how we fair. I've played a couple of Ryder Cup courses with my 200 yard if i'm lucky slices down the fairway and 3 or more putts on every green, they destroyed me utterly but damn it was fun trying.
DiscGolfPark as I understand it put in a lot more 9 hole courses and schools courses than they do 18 hole championship behemoths.
We'll agree to disagree on other things, I just wanted to reply to these specific paragraphs:
I am not condescending towards people who have built this game. I appreciate wholeheartedly people who have built this game. I love this game. I'm 24 hours out from a meeting to hopefully close a deal on a new course as I type this. I'm planning opening ceremonies for that course with free youth clinics, coordinating with local schools and after-school groups to bring them in to be introduced. I'm standing on the shoulders of giants, and I count myself lucky to be associated with some of them.
Now onto DeLa: I just re-read all of my posts because somehow these thoughts are attributed to me. I haven't even said DeLa in this thread...so I don't know how all of the sudden I'm condescending towards a course that I LIKE and occasionally even get to play when I'm not traveling. Color me confused.
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Guilty as charged as a Black Spotter...having grown up in the sport on Stanimal courses and being a weenie arm (350' max on good days). But this conversation needs one other very important aspect to be brought into consideration: camera technology and wireless internet bandwidth.
What makes disc golf interesting/compelling is the aerodynamics of discs. And yes, that includes huge D. And, it includes a huge variety of flight patterns. You need to capture both to make a compelling showcase that will capture the imagination (and advertising revenue) of the general public. I would argue, not as a Black Spotter but as a math geek, that proportionality would suggest much more shot shaping than shot bombing.
No one can deny that there has been huge advancement in both portable camera technology and wireless internet bandwidth in just the last 5 years….both in performance and price. And, no one can deny that the depth perspective/perception of cameras sucks….and has not advanced greatly in the last 20 years….and that means shorter holes (hole segments really) are better than long for this consideration. I would expect these technology trends to continue and that in 5-10 years broadcast-worthy streaming content will be very cheap to generate (this includes temporary microcells installed on courses). Bring multiple streams into a studio for production by experts and voila….you got a compelling show for distribution to a live audience.
For these reasons, we (by "we", I mean "you") are better served working hard on producing broadcasts with multiple cameras per hole and bringing well designed wooded holes (appropriate for the skill level playing) into the broadcast along with some (boring) open holes.
What makes disc golf interesting/compelling is the aerodynamics of discs. And yes, that includes huge D. And, it includes a huge variety of flight patterns. You need to capture both to make a compelling showcase that will capture the imagination (and advertising revenue) of the general public. I would argue, not as a Black Spotter but as a math geek, that proportionality would suggest much more shot shaping than shot bombing.
No one can deny that there has been huge advancement in both portable camera technology and wireless internet bandwidth in just the last 5 years….both in performance and price. And, no one can deny that the depth perspective/perception of cameras sucks….and has not advanced greatly in the last 20 years….and that means shorter holes (hole segments really) are better than long for this consideration. I would expect these technology trends to continue and that in 5-10 years broadcast-worthy streaming content will be very cheap to generate (this includes temporary microcells installed on courses). Bring multiple streams into a studio for production by experts and voila….you got a compelling show for distribution to a live audience.
For these reasons, we (by "we", I mean "you") are better served working hard on producing broadcasts with multiple cameras per hole and bringing well designed wooded holes (appropriate for the skill level playing) into the broadcast along with some (boring) open holes.
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Oh....and the technology fix is in most cases much less expensive both in $$$ and man-hours than building new courses for the 1%.
I'm on record with saying what has been labelled as Black Spotters courses by Jussi (and condescended upon my JTacoma) has a better chance of winning airtime in a 20 year horizon than "big air" courses.
But, I'm all-in on placing my bet on DG never getting on TV even to the level of Bowling or Billiards is today. It is simply a terribly boring activity to watch.
I'm on record with saying what has been labelled as Black Spotters courses by Jussi (and condescended upon my JTacoma) has a better chance of winning airtime in a 20 year horizon than "big air" courses.
But, I'm all-in on placing my bet on DG never getting on TV even to the level of Bowling or Billiards is today. It is simply a terribly boring activity to watch.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
heretic.
On DeLa: my apologies, you are correct, you haven't said anything condescending about DeLa; that would be Jussi's posts.
About you being condescending towards those who have built this sport: It's the way your posts came off, which probably has more to do with the fact that we are having this discussion on the internet so tone is a really easy thing to misinterpret. However, part of that condescending tone comes from the fact that you all are trying to go in a completely different direction, and in articulating that, it feels as though you guys are implying that everyone who has built this spot has wasted their time. Looking back at it, it is therefore my fault for reading too far between the lines when it comes to posts on a discussion forum, and for that I apologize as well.
As for the rest, I think we can finally agree on something, and also agree on this: there is plenty of room for whatever it is Discmania is doing in the sport and for the natural continued growth of the current sport, and we may end up liking what it is that comes of your big plans.
All I initially was trying to say was, after the tournament, I didn't really care for the St. Jude course because it was so open and kind of boring to watch. You can see where the argubate (argument + debate) went from there.
Anyways, good luck with the new course, and thank you for the time you are spending introducing disc golf to the youth. :clap: :hfive:
slowplastic
* Ace Member *
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Just because skateboarding is on TV and they have megaramps with 60 foot jumps doesn't mean you have to do that. There are tons of 10 year old kids learning how to ollie up a sidewalk, and SO MANY skateparks available for free to everyone in the public, with features of multiple sizes for multiple ability levels. It was a spot, now it's a spot and a sport, as per what Jussi was saying.
You don't have to love watching vert skateboarding to enjoy skating with your friends, but you can still know that because of its existence in the public realm it has helped more people be accepting of skateboarding in general.
The existence of large level competitions isn't going to tear away peoples' favourite wooded courses. And everyone is free to ignore these contests if they don't like them. What I don't see is the negative aspect they could have. I mean if people were aware at all about the existence of disc golf, I wouldn't have to wave a piece of plastic in the air at the person standing beside the deer feeder on their cell phone that they're about to get Destroyer'd.
You don't have to love watching vert skateboarding to enjoy skating with your friends, but you can still know that because of its existence in the public realm it has helped more people be accepting of skateboarding in general.
The existence of large level competitions isn't going to tear away peoples' favourite wooded courses. And everyone is free to ignore these contests if they don't like them. What I don't see is the negative aspect they could have. I mean if people were aware at all about the existence of disc golf, I wouldn't have to wave a piece of plastic in the air at the person standing beside the deer feeder on their cell phone that they're about to get Destroyer'd.
BuzzSharpe
Par Member
As to the original concept of the thread of lambasting a designer's design. PDGA member 1576 said it best when he said, "Every disc golf course has had its little band of detractors of players who think that they have a better idea."
YawningDrone
Par Member
lol at the intense criticism of the St Jude's course. I thought it was awesome. We are lucky to have so many different types of courses. The top golfers should be able to execute on any type of course and this one definitely tested them. Mastering long open shots that are affected by the wind can be just as tricky as learning to navigate the woods. We need both.
I think whoever made the point about people having a bias toward the type of course they play most often was right on. Too much of anything can be a bad thing. All wooded is no better than all long and open to me.
Great job to all who were involved with St Judes
I think whoever made the point about people having a bias toward the type of course they play most often was right on. Too much of anything can be a bad thing. All wooded is no better than all long and open to me.
Great job to all who were involved with St Judes
Well fwiw i love playing fort snelling here but understand why its boring to play for a lot of players and definately to "watch" thats the critism hell my reviews of the course got thumbs down bc i rated it too high im sure lol.
Halcón
Free At Last
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Its a tough pill to swallow, but he's right.
I appreciate your passion. I definitely don't mean to come off as condescending either, my apologies to the hardworking community who affects change at every level. Hopefully we chalk this up to a bunch of people with an extreme amount of love for the game arguing toward making the game better and having a more numerous and diverse group of players, courses, and challenges ahead.
I think there is room for all types of players, at all levels of skill, and all levels of commitment. In that we are very similar to Golf. If not for the growth up to this point we wouldn't be at that growing pain level where we have the good problem of people wanting different things.
I think slowplastic's post below sums up eloquently what we are trying to accomplish.
There's plenty of room on this planet for ALL types of courses. From "object/tone, made up in my own backyard" types all the way to "World Class par 72 Championship Elite level invite only..." courses, we need them ALL. You'd never take a five year old to your local 18 public bolf course just like you'd never take a business client to a miniture golf putt-putt course with the windmill and clown shots.
DG is similar in serving a wide spectrum of people. DGCR does the best in filtering and catergorizing these courses so people can pick what type of DG experience they would most likely have at that course. If I'm on vacation with family, I can take my kids to the lil 9-er at the elementary school or leave the kids with mom and go play the monster course down the road. If my brothers, cousins, nephews, or friends who seldom play are with me, we find an easy 18. Say I win 5 tourneys in Open this summer. Should I go to state finals and skip the ace race with my friends? Majors are major because they are intended to challenge the best, not us 99.9%. Those courses are designed for them and sometimes you have limitations like time, land, money, etc that can affect what it turns out to be.
As far as watchability. Spectators need to be in the right spot to see the best shots and dramatic recoveries, but also outta harms way. Tough to do.
Technology has come quite a ways and you can get mulitple cameras anywhere on a course, but it takes time and money to do it right. Tough to do when you have to set up, test, film, take down, go to next major that's hundreds, if not thouands of miles away. Tough to do
Live coverage. We are not that big yet and most of us would be playing dg if we could instead of watching.
Tape, edit, produce, advertisements, leaderboard graphics, score, hole previews, color and commentary, etc, etc, etc is more of what I prefer, when I wanna watch it, how I do it and on what media device I might be on.
I just want to play somewhere. We need ALL types of course.
DG is similar in serving a wide spectrum of people. DGCR does the best in filtering and catergorizing these courses so people can pick what type of DG experience they would most likely have at that course. If I'm on vacation with family, I can take my kids to the lil 9-er at the elementary school or leave the kids with mom and go play the monster course down the road. If my brothers, cousins, nephews, or friends who seldom play are with me, we find an easy 18. Say I win 5 tourneys in Open this summer. Should I go to state finals and skip the ace race with my friends? Majors are major because they are intended to challenge the best, not us 99.9%. Those courses are designed for them and sometimes you have limitations like time, land, money, etc that can affect what it turns out to be.
As far as watchability. Spectators need to be in the right spot to see the best shots and dramatic recoveries, but also outta harms way. Tough to do.
Technology has come quite a ways and you can get mulitple cameras anywhere on a course, but it takes time and money to do it right. Tough to do when you have to set up, test, film, take down, go to next major that's hundreds, if not thouands of miles away. Tough to do
Live coverage. We are not that big yet and most of us would be playing dg if we could instead of watching.
Tape, edit, produce, advertisements, leaderboard graphics, score, hole previews, color and commentary, etc, etc, etc is more of what I prefer, when I wanna watch it, how I do it and on what media device I might be on.
I just want to play somewhere. We need ALL types of course.
Understable
Par Member
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- 121
My original question was about the play-ability of these courses. As I said, I'm an average player (max throw 350') and it was about playing these types of courses. I would love to play Jarva, Mundaring or St Judes but I wouldn't want it to be my home course. This is because it is long and having to make three drives in a row doesn't make sense, especially when it is like that on every hole. I like a course that challenges me to shape my shots.
As Jamie and Jussi stated St. Judes and Mundaring was designed for the top 1% and not for the average golfer. I can accept that and it makes sense.
As for whether a wide open course or something like DeLa is the best for video coverage/watching that is subjective. Jamie and Jussi, have you tried doing a survey to find out what type of course the average golfer likes to watch? or are you making an assumption that St.Jude/Mundaring is better? (opinion seems pretty split here)
Personally I don't think anyone really knows what will be the best coverage because the video technology is continually evolving. We are using traditional coverage, using a camera (I'm referring to SpinTV coverage) step up to watch the flight of the disc. I wouldn't be surprised that with the advancement in video and wireless technology covering a wooded course will become easier and more interesting.
But what will really change coverage of the sport will be $$$. Not Innova or Prodigy sponsorship but from larger companies that will allow for multiple cameras (both fixed and roaming). Then we will see a true revolution in the coverage of the sport and will really allow our imagination and tech savy to reach well beyond what we are doing now. Heck, imagine using the Lily camera technology that can track a disc?
Someday Jamie, Terry Miller, CCDG and Jomez will sit down over a beer and say "Man can you believe we covered disc golf with that ancient camera set-up?"
As Jamie and Jussi stated St. Judes and Mundaring was designed for the top 1% and not for the average golfer. I can accept that and it makes sense.
As for whether a wide open course or something like DeLa is the best for video coverage/watching that is subjective. Jamie and Jussi, have you tried doing a survey to find out what type of course the average golfer likes to watch? or are you making an assumption that St.Jude/Mundaring is better? (opinion seems pretty split here)
Personally I don't think anyone really knows what will be the best coverage because the video technology is continually evolving. We are using traditional coverage, using a camera (I'm referring to SpinTV coverage) step up to watch the flight of the disc. I wouldn't be surprised that with the advancement in video and wireless technology covering a wooded course will become easier and more interesting.
But what will really change coverage of the sport will be $$$. Not Innova or Prodigy sponsorship but from larger companies that will allow for multiple cameras (both fixed and roaming). Then we will see a true revolution in the coverage of the sport and will really allow our imagination and tech savy to reach well beyond what we are doing now. Heck, imagine using the Lily camera technology that can track a disc?
Someday Jamie, Terry Miller, CCDG and Jomez will sit down over a beer and say "Man can you believe we covered disc golf with that ancient camera set-up?"
Understable
Par Member
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Sorry shouldn't have put Jarva on that list. I'd love that to be my home course.
BgWvDave
Double Eagle Member
I am really glad I found this thread. Biscoe I have known for a long time that you are the man! I just appreciate the numerous times that this notion is reinforced!!!
Great post. Well spoken.
I think what was getting glossed over was "good for now" vs. "good for the future"
What I mean by that is potential for larger crews, more equipment, cell signal vs. satellite productions, etc, etc...
Logistics get exponentially complicated as you add more cameras and more crew. Also I believe that the current format of "round coverage videos" will be done away with when and if the sport grows (or at least at the top level). I would favor a more traditional golf-style broadcast where audiences can see McBeth nail a huge Eagle on 5, then pop over to Wysocki on a putt on 14, then to Simon's monster drive on 2, etc. It would also work better that way because we can gather highlights for future promoting of the tournaments, or studio shows (if we get that far!), and on and on.
Some people may not be on board with the vision we're putting forth, but we'd be doing ourselves a disservice to not aim high in all aspects. Jussi has proven time and again his ability to market, promote, and run top caliber events...so we figure, "hey...let's not limit our ambitions...worst-case scenario we can fall back to what we have already and re-group"
Which is pretty sweet in the grand scheme of things
So true. The crew at Viridisk grabbed a drone ace recently. In 2011 (not to toot my own horn) my GoPro was the one attached to the basket when Seppo threw in the Ace off the Santa Cruz Wharf at worlds. The DGP.tv crew has been pushing the technical envelope for years on a slim budget...so it's definitely exciting thinking about the future.
Agreed. I think partnerships with larger media outlets who have advertisers who want you the audience to think outside the bun or do the dew or whatever will be crucial. Proving that disc golf is a demographic worth advertising to is our challenge.
What I don't believe in (and I'm agreeing with your statement by saying this) is that some angel will just rain money on us from above and say "hey do what you want". Just because we were on Top10 doesn't mean we're going to be launched from a cannon in terms of our trajectory - but it is a great foundation and baby step towards where we want to go.
I'm very much looking forward to that day. I have an affinity for APA's and IPL's.
I know you don't like me, but it's creepy that your disdain for me is getting to the level that you don't add things to conversations but rather just post to throw shade.
I'm content to leave well enough alone, maybe you should consider that path too and we can all live happily ever after.
BgWvDave
Double Eagle Member
Once again your arrogance shines bright JT. I don't dislike you...I have never met you. My post had absolutely nothing to do with you. It was exactly what it was intended to be...a pat on the back to my good friend Mr. John Biscoe.
You would do well to apply your post to yourself.
