Jussi Meresmaa design concepts are...'Meh'

[biscoe]

You're completely missing the point.

The spot will always grow, for every sport. It takes literally no effort to "#growthespot", you just do what we've been doing for 30 years.

"Literally no effort" trivializes a whole lot of effort from a whole lot of people. This statement is incredibly patronizing.

The point Jussi is making is that the TOP LEVEL of the game should not be catering to the SPOT, but rather the SPORT.

By diminishing the aspects of the game that actually make it the great thing it is in the name of accessibility for one camera video coverage???? Does the game need to change in order to be showcased or do those doing the showcasing need to improve their methods?

If the spot will grow on it's own (let's be catchy and call it organic, or grassroots, growth) - why on earth should we cater to it? Our efforts are better spent growing the SPORT so that the "black spotters" who decide to progress beyond that level may ultimately have a viable option to join the sport.

If the people carrying the torch for the "sport" are so condescending towards what came before them and what supports the entire financial structure of the "sport" (I doubt the touring pros are spending much on Discmania plastic.) I would suggest it is they who lack perspective rather than those whose opinions differ from theirs.

You (the in-general you) can have your baggy cargos and high top hiking boots,

guilty as charged

or your 30 pack of natty and 3 discs, or an inane obsession with pre-2005 plastic while throwing 850-rated rounds...however we can also have athletes who desire something better, we can have people who pour their heart and souls into making something that is attractive to watch, we can have kids who say "I want to be Paul McBeth when I grow up"...it's OK.

We already have that...look at the Barela kid.

Live as a black spotter if you want (again, in general, not calling biscoe out) but have the decency to draw the line at actively rooting against the sport. I promise your 5200' par 54 frolf courses will still exist...there just may be more people playing the nice course down the street in the future.

I don't see or hear anyone rooting against the success of disc golf as a sport- I hear differing opinions as to what its future actually is and all I hear from your side of it is a bunch of generalizations not rooted in any fact that I can tell and a whole lot of "wait and see, there's big stuff coming". Some of us have already been there and done that many times over so please forgive us for not hopping on the bus. The "sport" has been on the "brink of something big" since before you were born. The "spot" on the other hand has grown sufficiently that someone like Mr. Meresmaa can apparently make a living off of it.

 

[DiscLoser1]

I know we're just the internets and all, and trolling is a matter of course, so it's easy to dismiss any opinion offered, but does anyone else notice how we're not allowed to offer legitimate critique of those who work "in the highest levels of the sport" without being lumped in the the lumpy proletariat? I personally am not rooting against anyone or anything. I dress nicer by accident during rec rounds than a lot of the top pros. And I don't drink or anything else while playing. No one on here is educated. No one here reads a lot. The spot/sport polemic is simply pretty insulting.

When we criticize coverage, we're told our opinions are not legit because they are working hard! and for free! at their own expense! etc etc

When we criticize a course due to how it LOOKED when presented on video, we're told that we don't get it because we're not top-tier athletes.

Good on you JTacoma03 for landing a job with Discmania/SpinTV and being privy to the "highest level of the sport" (you guys hiring btw?), and I hope you've heard from the Pros who played the St. Jude layout, and they were challenged and overwhelmed by it's awesomeness, but it LOOKED terrible and boring. It looked small and stupid to throw plastic down a golf fairway, no matter the sponsor/charity or high class golf resort involved. I get that presenting the image is half the battle in the world of money and sponsorship, but...

Some hard truth: the reason the game is still stuck where it is, paying winning money from other's pockets in parking lots?
IT'S BECAUSE THIS IS A GAME DIRECTLY BASED ON AN OLDER, MUCH MORE ESTABLISHED, MUCH MORE HISTORIC SPORT, WITH A LONG TRADITION OF UPPER CLASS WEALTH ATTACHED TO IT AND SUPPORTING IT AND DRIVING IT, WHILE DISC GOLF WAS BORN AMONG THE LOWER UNWASHED MASSES, EGALITARIAN, AND WITH UPPER CLASS SOCIAL STATUS PLAYING NO ROLE IN INTRODUCTION TO THE GAME.

It's called disc GOLF. In the US at least, eye-rolling will always be a matter of course from most top-tier athletes competing in established sports. Until you can get the Donald or Koch Brothers or Budweiser to sponsor or build a course, ie somehow make it profitable for the money-ed string pullers to be bothered by a peasant past time, the spot is all you got, dudes. We'll keep introducing the 'spot' to each other, and hopefully pull in some top-tier athletes for you to recruit to your 'sport'.

 

[sjberry2017]

Alright, I'll go ahead and get involved in this discussion

(Disclaimer: following piece of theory is from a person who lives really close to Siberia and has long enough distance to see outside the spo(r)t. This message is not aimed to Chuck personally but all who read. All the situations in this theory described are fictional. But true. I´m really low on smileys, but I hope you can read this with your tongue in cheek)

Indeed! This is tasty topic. Let me quickly introduce you a "Black Spot" theory. I appreciate all your passion and knowledge towards Disc Golf. However, current disc golfers (specially this group) represents the ultimate Black Spot. What does it mean?

I have studied this game called Frolf, Frisbeegolf or Disc Golf for 20+ years. All those years, I´ve tried to figure out Why we´re still here? Why we are still chucking plates in the woods when Skateboarding, Snowboarding and BMX are global sports? Ed´s first basket was installed in the shades of oaks and it was free to play. Since 70s we (the Black Spot) have owned this game.

You, right you reading to this are the reason. And the victim. You say watching players throw 450+ foot shots in the open is boring. You want to take it to the real challenge - the woods. That´s where you have learned the game.

Black Spot represents its own ideas and vision of the game. But. How do we know what the rest of the world wants? Or likes?
Do we know that general public wants to see a player get Delad? Yea, we speak cryptic. "You would not know it - its a frolf thing".

What do BMX (which is really on our level right now), skateboarding, and snowboarding have in common? They are all dynamic, quick action sports. There are many wow moments which occur rapidly. Disc golf is a completely different animal; we are like traditional golf and baseball. Our tension develops slowly over the course of a round or game; there are brief snapshots (aces, park jobs, great golf swings, home runs, amazing catches), but those are sprinkled out over a relatively long gameplay.

And this is partly why BMX, skateboarding, and snowboarding have gotten onto TV and are recognizable; they have that wow factor, an entertainment factor, where it made sense for an up and coming sports channel like ESPN back then to pick up the X Games; the rapid succession of wow moments is what made it attractive to put on the TV and made it so watchable. Disc golf just doesn't have that.

If you want more evidence of that, look at what disc golf plays have made ESPN Sportscenter. It's been aces, our quick moments of excitement.

As to getting DeLaed, and what I'm assuming you mean to be our cryptic language, every sport has that. Have you actually listened to anyone talking about skateboarding, snowboarding, etc? Ollies, fakies, etc etc, are just as foreign a language as getting DeLaed or Hyzer/Anny. Every sport has it's own terms, and part of what makes a place special, at least in our culture, is if it has become a verb itself.

You are focusing to that [tiny] black spot representing the game. The more I studied the more I realised that all the actions we do are towards to the spot (not sport). Whole nine yards, from paying winning money form others´pockets at the parking lot to course design for the existing players. Look at all the live streams that we have? Is that great we can now follow our guys online with our friends? Yes it is. Is that interesting for a complete new person to learn what Disc Golf is? No. Isn´t this new disc called Pig dope? Yes! What would the general public think when finding that from the shelves of Dick´s? What a..?!

So what exactly is the difference between having a live stream of a tournament and having it on TV, other than the fact one is online and the other is on TV? Either way it's the same players, the same courses, and the same action. Except one is online, because the spo(r)t isn't big enough yet to actually be viable on even ESPN3.

As to the discs and naming them, part of what got me into the sport was walking into Academy Sports and seeing all the cool DX hot stamps. I picked my first driver and midrange (Viper and Shark), partly based off the hot stamps. Is it perhaps a bit unprofessional looking? I suppose so. However, it does help to make the discs stick in a person's mind. I personally HATE Prodigy's PA, M, F, H, X, and D naming system. For some odd reason, I don't mind Discmania's, perhaps because there are the arbitrary flight numbers on the disc that help me figure out how it could fly. But why should we go away from something that clearly helps to grow our spo(r)t?

Did you get the spoint?

We are stuck with our limited capabilities and visions. Its hard to know whats outside the bubble. I like to read a lot so I can expand my universe. I like to test and try new things. But most of all, I like to shake existing old frontiers. My personal favourite question is why not?

I like playing challenging wooded courses. In fact, from all the 100+ courses I have designed, over 33% is wooded. The OP claimed that my ball golf course designs are "meh". Simply, I was not serving the spot. I´m currently testing new things. You´ll hear much more in the next 6-8 months.

I wish you a great summer with Disc Golf!

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2015/04/footgolf-finding-its-way-at-us-golf-courses.html

I do applaud you for testing new frontiers. I'm simply trying to provide feedback that, from a viewing perspective, your St. Jude course was really, desperately, boring to watch, and that the main reason to me was that it was so wide open and didn't really provide any sort of visual indication of challenge.

At the end of the day, I do encourage you to keep testing and trying new things. Just please be open to receiving feedback and honestly analyzing it from those people who you dub "The Spot," because we may be able to see that a course is a snoozefest to watch, and a course which produces a product like that isn't going to generate any sort of publicity since it lacks the "wow" factor of BMX/Skateboarding/Snowboarding.

And as to foot golf, just lol.

 

[sjberry2017]

^^^^^And also, Biscoe and DiscLoser, on point with their replies as well :thmbup: :hfive:

 

[Mocheez]

I think some clarification would help settle this argument. It seems like we are arguing the far extremes of wooded and open courses while both sides are probably closer to middle ground than we realize.

Jussi / JTacoma, what vision do you have for the course of the future? If it is something like the Beast at the Nokia Sports Complex, then I am all for it. That course looks amazing with a mix of trees, water, and elevation. If the goal is to have courses modeled after the St. Jude temporary course, then I think we are heading in the wrong direction.

The Beast: http://opendiscgolf.com/competitor-information/the-course/

 

[JedV]

Huge props to Jussi for chiming in. He has my respect, that's for sure. I've played dg on ball golf courses in temporary set ups for tournaments, it's different. Would I want to play courses like that regularly? Probably not. But the odd championship course doesn't get in my way of playing smaller technical courses that I prefer.

Kudos!

 

[JTacoma03]

"Literally no effort" trivializes a whole lot of effort from a whole lot of people. This statement is incredibly patronizing.

Oh please. Way to straw man the argument. I took you for smarter than that.

I'm saying it has reached critical mass due to the foundation of blood, sweat, and tears from the forefathers of the sport - so at this point we don't have to do extra effort to maintain a frolf trajectory.

By diminishing the aspects of the game that actually make it the great thing it is in the name of accessibility for one camera video coverage???? Does the game need to change in order to be showcased or do those doing the showcasing need to improve their methods?

Again, you're going so extreme with the argument. It's not black/white woods/open. There's grey area that you refuse to acknowledge when posting points like this. There is a great happy medium where the shots look good (double meaning intended).

If the people carrying the torch for the "sport" are so condescending towards what came before them and what supports the entire financial structure of the "sport" (I doubt the touring pros are spending much on Discmania plastic.) I would suggest it is they who lack perspective rather than those whose opinions differ from theirs.

I'll use a your exact line of logic in this reply: if the people who talk loudly on the internet think that their opinion represents the masses, I would also suggest it is they who lack perspective.

I don't see or hear anyone rooting against the success of disc golf as a sport- I hear differing opinions as to what its future actually is and all I hear from your side of it is a bunch of generalizations not rooted in any fact that I can tell and a whole lot of "wait and see, there's big stuff coming". Some of us have already been there and done that many times over so please forgive us for not hopping on the bus. The "sport" has been on the "brink of something big" since before you were born. The "spot" on the other hand has grown sufficiently that someone like Mr. Meresmaa can apparently make a living off of it.

Listen bud, I'm going to be candid and blunt as if we were having a conversation face to face.

I don't care personally if you hop on the bus or not. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm sure you're a great person and an asset to your local community, and I'm not being sarcastic or condescending at all when I say that. HOWEVER, there is a fine line between not hopping on the bus yourself and trying to sway others from joining because you personally aren't on board. That sort of behavior is the center of the black spot. The reason we have to say "wait and see" is because we are treating our mission like a business. It HAS potential to work huge in the US, it has worked in Europe. When people log on here they think they know everything once they follow a blog and play in a few PDGA events - maybe that's you, maybe it's not - but just because you can speak against something doesn't mean you should. Am I defensive? Sure, but you would be too if you had nothing in your heart but love for the game, and you constantly face a barrage of people sh*tting on a plan that they know nothing about, but they think they know what you're up to.

Is it so hard to be reasonable and critique something once facts are out? Rather than fire from the hip and claim that people like Jussi are making money off of the "spot". You clearly haven't been to Europe or seen the system in action.

The reason I get frustrated is because people claim to know things they have no knowledge about. That's a fault of mine and I'll deal with the consequences. Misinformation is dangerous, I've personally seen it cancel tournaments, have courses pulled, block numerous course installation plans, etc. People who don't know, but think they do, are the poison that can bring us all down. Please don't be one of those.

 

[OhSnap]

I'm envious of you, JT and Jussi. You guys are lucky to have such a great brand to build and judging from the passion you guys bring we are lucky to have you as well. The blunt "boardroom" speech is also very appreciated even if it's bad PR and won't win many fans. Jussi sharing his vision here is also much appreciated and facinating.

That said I take Aristotle's definition of wisdom seriously, I know that I know nothing. So I will just offer that to me it sounds like both sides are on the near same page. I and others took Jussi incorrectly when he mentioned the future at the St Jude. Jussi did a great job with what Little he was given. I love the Euro open course and have watched that many times. If the boring St Jude course opens the way for more of that I'm definitely on board.

More participation interests big business which opens up its wallets. I don't have to be a non-noob to know that this is coming. If I were you guys I'd be on the phone to the Jack Links people.

 

[Flip Hyzerman]

COMO (Columbia, Missouri) disc golfers are definitely excited for Strawn; it will be hopefully be the cherry on top of an already decent DG scene in the area and hopefully attract more tourneys and more pros. I'm planning on filming tourney footage out there when it's all installed - can't wait. I think it will also be a nice change of pace from the courses we already have here in town. It'll be exciting to have you back in town when it opens; I was really happy to hear they'd gotten you to design it.

Flip, anyone who appreciates WR Jackson will love Strawn. Strawn has much more elevation, amazing -- and more recurring --creek features, some less wooded areas for better variety, and new structural features unlike any I've ever done. Instead of Gold tees, like WR Jackson, Strawn will have Blue tees and Gold pin positions, so it will be accessible to more players day-to-day and can still test the best for tournaments. (It will also have White and Red tees.) For that matter, Frost Valley will be in that same elite category, and Carrollton will be not far behind.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

JT you come off really condescending. I have no skin in the game and could give a **** less but you might want to reconsider your approach to discussion if you are officially representing Discmania Media Connections & Sales. You make me want to not buy anything Discmania and I like Jussi a lot, as well as the products.

 

[slowplastic]

JT you come off really condescending. I have no skin in the game and could give a **** less but you might want to reconsider your approach to discussion if you are officially representing Discmania Media Connections & Sales. You make me want to not buy anything Discmania and I like Jussi a lot, as well as the products.

I like his logical point by point approach, and quite enjoyed his retort. +1 Internet.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

He is not logical at all though. "Frolf" is a much bigger spot than the sport of disc golf.

That's real talk. I don't see too many true serious "athletes" out on the local courses, lol.

 

[DiscLoser1]

He's just spewing the company line, note for note - can't fault him for that, I suppose.

The disdain for 'us' vs. they and their system is pretty unprofessional, but only we who 'follow a blog and play in a few PDGA tournaments' should check ourselves and not 'talk loudly' on the internet. Hard to look good while talking smack on negativity on the internet while being negative on the internet. Acting unprofessional is still pretty rampant in all aspects of DG these days, I'm just glad to know Discmania has drawn a line in the sand for us, so we know where we stand (in case you missed it, they're smarter than us and have a 'system'** that works in Europe).

I hope the system works (not being sarcastic), and your heart is filled to overflowing with all the love you have for the game. (That is a little sarcastic, yeah.)

** The system us to create media-friendly events with top pros in more open spaces, I think.

Final note: Jussi's OP would have sufficed as comment in this thread, if a little more clear on the 'media' aspect. JT, however, sounds a little like a cult member who drank too much kool-aid.

 

[sjberry2017]

Listen bud, I'm going to be candid and blunt as if we were having a conversation face to face.

I don't care personally if you hop on the bus or not. I'm not trying to be rude, I'm sure you're a great person and an asset to your local community, and I'm not being sarcastic or condescending at all when I say that. HOWEVER, there is a fine line between not hopping on the bus yourself and trying to sway others from joining because you personally aren't on board. That sort of behavior is the center of the black spot. The reason we have to say "wait and see" is because we are treating our mission like a business. It HAS potential to work huge in the US, it has worked in Europe. When people log on here they think they know everything once they follow a blog and play in a few PDGA events - maybe that's you, maybe it's not - but just because you can speak against something doesn't mean you should. Am I defensive? Sure, but you would be too if you had nothing in your heart but love for the game, and you constantly face a barrage of people sh*tting on a plan that they know nothing about, but they think they know what you're up to.

Is it so hard to be reasonable and critique something once facts are out? Rather than fire from the hip and claim that people like Jussi are making money off of the "spot". You clearly haven't been to Europe or seen the system in action.

The reason I get frustrated is because people claim to know things they have no knowledge about. That's a fault of mine and I'll deal with the consequences. Misinformation is dangerous, I've personally seen it cancel tournaments, have courses pulled, block numerous course installation plans, etc. People who don't know, but think they do, are the poison that can bring us all down. Please don't be one of those.

Heaven forbid that people who have qualms about the direction a company that they admire and think does great things for the sport voice their displeasure with something that company was involved in and try to provide feedback to let the company know that he or she, as a consumer, was displeased with an aspect from that event.

Here's what I think the bottom line of what I've been trying to say is:

The St. Jude course was boring. Period. You did a great job with what you had, but as a course, it wasn't as great as y'all pumped it up to be. It was extremely boring to watch. Courses like Jarva and The Beast are a great mix of open and wooded, and are fun to watch.

My main issue is the condescension towards DeLa; it is excellent disc golf that makes for an exciting finish; certainly it creates a much better viewing experience than St. Jude's did, and the perceived issues with filming there could be solved with a second camera.

Other's main issues seem to be with your (JT's) condescending attitude towards those who have built this sport (yes, it is still a sport, not a spot). All of these people who have built the sport and poured their heart and soul into creating and building it to the point where it could even be a possibility for Discmania to put their plan for building a sport from the spot is, well, rather insulting for the disc golfers who would stand to be some of the most excited people about any big tournaments or events that Discmania would be putting on.

At the end of the day, we will just have to agree to disagree. I can only hope that whatever it is Discmania does will not have a negative impact on the sport I have fallen in love with and enjoy playing, or this so-called spot, as it were.

 

[Smigles]

I like courses where you actually have to drive twice on a par 4 hole. We should have more of those.

Just played Jussis course in Prague, and while the fairways are kinda wide, you can still easily get in trouble. You wont hit the fairway every time if you always have to throw 100% to even get near the basket within par. It's much easier to stay on the fairway in some pitch&putt forest course where you can just throw your midrange 60% power.

I guesss really good courses will have to offer a mix in the future. Wooded technical holes, but also looong par 4s and 5s.

 

[rhatton1]

Last year walking to the 17th tee John McCray had the USDGC in his pocket. With laying up, he could have won it. Instead running four times to the green and taking a 9.

I named hole 10 at Bayonet as "Simon trap" before the event. That was one of the holes where you could loose the event but not win. With the course design, I wanted to create a situations where laying up is okay. Its a new thing for these guys. They have used to run for the birdie every single hole.

:clap::clap::clap::clap:

It's somehow like the idea of the layup is not a real option for players (myself totally included) I love to include easy layup threes in courses vs difficult 2's that if executed poorly will lead to 5's (not drop in 3's/4's) as they punish the best players on the course, not the worst (unless the worst have a reeaalllly overinflated opinion of their abilities)

This hole was a perfect example of that. If you want the two, execute the shot and take it, but think about the risk vs reward first, and then the hot player on his/her day or on a charge makes it and walks away a shot better than the field and the one that went in with slight doubts in his/her mind walks away with a 5 and kicks themselves all the way to the next tee and possibly beyond that. It's golf and it's great design.

Also way to get in someones head before a tournament - evil mind games

 

[rhatton1]

The St. Jude course was boring. Period. You did a great job with what you had, but as a course, it wasn't as great as y'all pumped it up to be. It was extremely boring to watch. Courses like Jarva and The Beast are a great mix of open and wooded, and are fun to watch.

Herein lies the problem - you and a few others and possibly many more out there found the event boring to watch on youtube.

I and a few others and possibly many more out there found the event fun and interesting to watch on youtube.

Neither is right, both have their own very valid opinions when it comes to viewing on Youtube. However what the course layout was not was boring to play (apparently from everyone i know who had the opportunity to play) - it engaged players and made them think, possibly to think beyond a level they are normally used to on courses where a bad shot will at worst lead to one extra stroke and often no extra strokes. Reading from another closed discussion group one of the top designers in the country who's been in the sport since it was first a spot was gushing in his praise for the layout, whilst crucially understanding that it wasn't designed for his level of ability.

There has been a lot of discussion recently of baskets being too big and making the game too easy. Jussi's course showed that course design could do the job instead of changing equipment, a course thrown together in just two days!(albeit helped somewhat by conditions) Courses normally take designers days/weeks/years of sleepless nights worrying about every tiny detail, should it be a meter longer here, or taken two meters to the side here to encourage this shape shot, what's the prevailing wind etc etc and he put this course together in 2 days!

He asked questions of players and many answered wrongly (or at least wrong in that given situation with the wind as it was (eg hole 10 Simon Lizotte could have been a 3 or putting for long 2 all day long. It wasn't and he was out of the running)

To be clear i'm not a Discmania fanboi, we had our own problems last year with course equipment (which in fairness they sorted out admirably for us after the initial hiccups) but the direction Discmania is taking a section of the sport (the competitive and mainstream popularity) can only be a good thing. It's not going to suddenly mean all majors at wooded courses will stop - it's not going to mean technical short courses getting ripped out, it's going to be more venues for us all to play ranging from high level to beginner pitch and putts and a general improvement in the public perception of the sport.

There will be so much coverage of events soon you won't have to watch the "boring" open course ones, just take your pick of all the others filmed the same weekend. Just rest assured the players playing the "boring" open courses are having their games tested at the highest level.

What's not to love?

 

[biscoe]

JT you come off really condescending. I have no skin in the game and could give a **** less but you might want to reconsider your approach to discussion if you are officially representing Discmania Media Connections & Sales. You make me want to not buy anything Discmania

^^^this. Best of luck in your venture to bring the "sport" of dg to the masses. Anyone want to buy some slightly used p2's?

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Herein lies the problem - you and a few others and possibly many more out there found the event boring to watch on youtube.

I and a few others and possibly many more out there found the event fun and interesting to watch on youtube.

What's not to love?

The problem is you are a fan of disc golf. Early on i tried some unique things to see what kind of opportunity there might be in disc golf at a bigger level but honestly no one really knows or cares about disc golf as a sport even a large share of the players. Its groups of people out throwing plastic for the most part. Sure we love disc golf but its not an easy sell. A lot of what you posted that i didnt quote isn't really true either.

FWIW if st.jude style dg is the future then courses here like fort snelling would be overun with top level players to n00bs i would imagine....? Most of the time there are a handful of groups if any out playing when I go. The shorter and easier or free rec courses get tons more traffic while bringing much greater public exposure across all levels.

 

[Aim For The Chains]

Like terry miller said last night... If he has 6 acres on a school with no trees hes going to make the best damn course possible. That is the future of disc golf IMO. Places like these....
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/reviews.php?id=6860&page=1&mode=rev#5560