Miscount or not?

[markmcc]

At my second tournament we had a guy on the card that was hitting a lot of trees and running up some pretty high hole scores. When we'd have each member call out their score he'd reply with "6" on holes where we knew he had shot higher. I'd say something like "Bill, I'm pretty sure that you had at least 7 on that hole" and he'd immediately agree that if I thought it was a 7, go ahead and put that down.

I didn't get the sense that he was trying to cheat, but rather he was careless about keeping close count on his strokes. It was apparent that he wasn't in any position to place highly in the tournament, so he wasn't "cheating" to that end. Maybe sometimes it's just hard to count to 8!!

 

[smyith]

i'm sure you're a regular cesar millan, smyith

cesar ain't got nothing on me. ;p

 

[gvdg jake]

Ive seen people do this who were keeping the card. I asked them to make sure to say their score outloud also when asking for all scores. This way people are listening and if they doubt the score they can recall it in their head. :hfive:

 

[BgWvDave]

this is why i like calling out everyones score for each hole after each hole.

Great point Smyith. this is actually the rule for keeping score.
805.02 C.
After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group.

 

[cboucher]

btw, nothing wrong with a responsible dog owner with a well behaved dog on the course. guarantee you my dogs are behaved better then 90% of the people on the course....and i always have poo bags with me.

You are definitely in the minority. I was at a course yesterday that allows dogs. The first thing you see when you get out of your car and start heading towards the park is a poo bag dispenser full of bags. What do I see on the fairway for hole #2? That's right, a huge pile of dog s***. I guess the owner thought it was ok because it was on hole #2....

 

[markmcc]

I like dogs, I really do. But for every dog owner whose dog really is well-behaved, there seem to be about 9 who think theirs is, but really isn't. I guess it's like kids in a restaurant. Most folks think their kid is the best, but other's perspective may be much different.

Now that dog "Bear" that was written up in Disc Golfer magazine sounds like one that I'd want to have around any time. Recovered 103 discs at the 2012 Vibram Open...

 

[smyith]

You are definitely in the minority. I was at a course yesterday that allows dogs. The first thing you see when you get out of your car and start heading towards the park is a poo bag dispenser full of bags. What do I see on the fairway for hole #2? That's right, a huge pile of dog s***. I guess the owner thought it was ok because it was on hole #2....

lol
it drives me nuts! i run people down on the course to make them pick it up (why i have the extra bags mainly). and these are the same people who can't put 1 and 1 together to understand why we keep losing parks for dogs and why dog parks cost money to use....its like "cause youre the jag who doesn't pick up your dogs crap!!!!"

but that being said, BRP allows dogs off leash and after a couple dozen round there i have only noticed 1 pile of poop and it was in the bushes (so i assumed the owner didn't see it). so some areas have responsible owners and dogs but not many...so i understand the resentment some people have.

 

[joshuajames]

It sounds like you handled it about as well as you could. You were tactful and ended up getting the correct result.

This^^^

 

[tom12003]

Now that dog "Bear" that was written up in Disc Golfer magazine sounds like one that I'd want to have around any time. Recovered 103 discs at the 2012 Vibram Open...

You've got that right! Bear, his "replacement" Boo, and their owner have stayed at my house during USDGCs. Not only do they recover wet discs, they are bettered behaved than most humans.

 

[John Rock]

Usually the dogs aren't the problem, it's their disrespectful owners who seem to think yelling louder will suddenly make the dog mind.

 

[coupe]

Great point Smyith. this is actually the rule for keeping score.
805.02 C.
After each hole is completed, the scorekeeper shall call out each player's name. The called player shall answer with the score in a manner that is clear to all players of the group and the scorekeeper. The scorekeeper shall record that score and read it back, in a manner that is clear to all players of the group.

That's all well and good, insofar as it goes. Problem is, it doesn't go far enough.

I'm aware of two instances where the scorekeeper "read back" the score that was called out but wrote down a different score. (Which, btw, could happen just as easily if everyone was keeping someone else's scorecard.) Unless someone on the card is watching over the scorekeeper's shoulder while (s)he writes down the score, you still have to trust the scorekeeper to record the scores properly.

And, even then, a pencil whipper could easily go back and change a player's score on an earlier hole.

 

[Bamm]

I let everybody know on hole one that I am keeping a second scorecard. I haven't run into any issues and most guys appreciate it.

 

[scarpfish]

This just bolsters the argument that I wish the PDGA would mandate having at least two scorecards per card.

 

[oddjob]

I let everybody know on hole one that I am keeping a second scorecard. I haven't run into any issues and most guys appreciate it.

I think it is better to announce it up front like this since it should stop any nefarious activity from the start.

 

[JC17393]

That's all well and good, insofar as it goes. Problem is, it doesn't go far enough.

I'm aware of two instances where the scorekeeper "read back" the score that was called out but wrote down a different score. (Which, btw, could happen just as easily if everyone was keeping someone else's scorecard.) Unless someone on the card is watching over the scorekeeper's shoulder while (s)he writes down the score, you still have to trust the scorekeeper to record the scores properly.

And, even then, a pencil whipper could easily go back and change a player's score on an earlier hole.

Which is why the scorecard is supposed to be rotated and then the scorecard is supposed to be double checked by each player at the end of the round before it is turned in. Each player is ultimately responsible for their own scores. If you're an attentive player, you're not going to allow for another player to change your scores. You'll catch it one way or another.

Not really sure how much further the rule can go. Mandating that every player keeps score for every other player in the group, I suppose. Personally, I'm all for something like that becoming standard at tournaments, but at the same time I wonder if such a change might be an overreaction to a problem that isn't really as epidemic as some make it out to be.

Between leagues, minis and tournaments, I've probably played over 500 events and however many individual rounds that comprised them and I've never encountered blatant pencil-whipping in any group I've played in. Mistakes in scoring, for sure, but always caught and resolved without any issue or even suspicion of intentional wrong-doing. I admit that my experience doesn't mean that intentional score manipulation doesn't happen, but I would think that if it were an issue worthy of re-writing or adding on to the rules, I'd have run across it at one point or another.

I think the easier solution is simply more vigilance. Keeping a "ghost" card requires no rules changes at all. If more players were in the habit of doing it, it would make it that much harder for anyone to get away with any scorecard funny business.

 

[Karl]

The "best" way of eliminating such problem (although a little more work for the TDs) is for each player to "take down the scores of each player each hole for the entire round". They (the entire card) then hands in to tournament central all 4 (or 3, depending) cards en masse - AFTER each card shows the same as each other card (read: the players have to get together after the round is done and make SURE all the scoring jibes). If this rubs the ADD part of some people the wrong way, tough. They're playing in a TOURNAMENT, not a pick-up game.

Karl
Ps: This method has been used at Rutgers many times in the past and at the Yetter at Tyler, all with great results (no pencil whipping and no 'penalty strokes' for miss-added-up scores).

 

[rat106]

At the last tournament that I played in, two of us kept score on our phones, as well as rotating the cards. It worked out really well.

 

[BogeyNoMore]

Yes, and the rulebook stipulates that the card be passed unless the entire group agrees to have a single scorekeeper.

^this. At the very least it limits the amount of damage an individual can do.

 

[MrFixIt]

I've only encountered one instance of someone pencil whipping the card in tourney play.
Was quite amusing when the guy went to turn in the card and myself and the other 2 players called him out on it in front of the TD.
He dnf'd the second round...

 

[GT Chris]

This just bolsters the argument that I wish the PDGA would mandate having at least two scorecards per card.

That'll get out of hand quick.

At two cards per card, you'll be using all of the cellulose on earth for paper to keep score after just 53 rounds. After 88 rounds, that collection of old scorecards will be as massive as the Earth.