New Course Design Do's and Don'ts

[dray]

I am currently looking at a really sweet piece of property that is being developed into a local township park.The first phase is complete and the second phase will begin next year.I have offered to design and install a disc golf course on parts of the property that will be near some playing fields and walking paths.There are streams feeding the middle branch of the white clay creek ,some densely wooded areas and open fields along with some nice elevation changes.I am aware of keeping the flow of the course as far away from other park users as possible and have experience at course design.I am interested in gaining some more insight so I don't make any mistakes that have been made before.

 

[bradharris]

If there are streams in play, one important thing to keep in mind is to make sure there is a way to cross the stream not just to areas where the disc is supposed to go, but also areas where bad throws might end up.

Nothing is more frustrating than throwing a bad drive over a stream and then having to find a roundabout way to get to it.

 

[DavidSauls]

I'm too lazy to research, but three suggestions:

* Find and check out the Course Designers Group (or whatever they're called---Chuck?)
* Go to John Houck's website. When we started our course he had some really helpful and insightful articles posted.
* Dig up discussion threads, old and new.....there are some good ideas, and lots of trashing of bad ideas, on them.

 

[jenb]

The Houck website is here. It has a tab for course design articles.

http://www.houckdesign.com/

 

[denny ritner]

If this is your first design, then my #1 recommendation would be to do a co-design with an experienced designer. Reading is a great supplement, but there is no substitute for an experienced eye. If you send Chuck a p.m., i'd bet that he could direct you to some folks in your area.

i also recommend keeping potential courses on the down-low, until the ink's dry on an agreement. there are, unfortunately, lots of vultures out there that can swoop in and jack-up a potential project when they catch wind of it.

enjoy the adventure!

 

[Sadjo]

Yes...keep the plans close to the chest. I've had some projects get delayed or canceled because of 'well meaning' players that wanted to 'help' but ended up hurting the project.

I've learned that lesson and I now only share when baskets are ordered unless it is sharing info with trusted folks that will also be involved in the project.

 

[Steve West]

Let everyone know up front that you will be using the Iterative Design process. Build, test, analyze, and refine.

The design will change over time. A lot while you are conceptualizing, quite a bit while you are test-playing it, some more after it "opens", and gradually less and less over time. Plan for it, and use that as the way to incrementally approach the best possible design.

If people want really nice signs or concrete tees the first year, that's OK, but ONLY if they are willing to replace anything that needs to be modified.

 

[Dave242]

i also recommend keeping potential courses on the down-low, until the ink's dry on an agreement. there are, unfortunately, lots of vultures out there that can swoop in and jack-up a potential project when they catch wind of it.

Yes...keep the plans close to the chest. I've had some projects get delayed or canceled because of 'well meaning' players that wanted to 'help' but ended up hurting the project.

I've learned that lesson and I now only share when baskets are ordered unless it is sharing info with trusted folks that will also be involved in the project.

Interesting. I had not considered this before. What sorts of things can happen with what sorts of people?

 

[tallpaul]

^There are persons who conisder themselves "important;" who just have bad personalities or give very poor input. Our area has had a couple of courses that where nearly a go; become scraped because the wrong person attempted to get involved.

 

[Doupie620]

Quicksand should be removed...

 

[John Rock]

Interesting. I had not considered this before. What sorts of things can happen with what sorts of people?

We've got players around here who will stop at nothing to get their way. Backstabbing, telling lies, or any manner of nonsense just to get their own agenda on the books. It is sad but all too true. They won't start a design project because the work is hard, creating something out of nothing is not easy. But once the project is on the move, these types will try to weasel in because their ideas are the "best". If a new course owner has to deal with the drama these losers cause, they may just decide to install horseshoe pits instead.

 

[DavidSauls]

Amazing. I'd never have guessed.

When we started to build a private course we invited everyone out to lend us ideas. No one ever came. Perhaps they guessed that physical labor would be included in the designer package.

 

[Sadjo]

Others don't always realize the amount of time and energy that has been put into a project and they'll say or share information regarding cost or design or something else and it might fly in the face of what was involved in the original proposals.

When I propose a course, the written proposal isn't produced until there have been several discussions and the property that will end up being used if approved has been walked a couple of times. You need to make sure you know what you're getting into before doing the proposal.

The cost of 18 baskets with signs is about $6,000 from Innova. Add flypads or cement tee pads and the expense is now $10,000. Add design fees and the price can jump another couple of thousand to tens of thousands of dollars.

Anyway...so after spending countless hours in discussion with land owners, school personal, park and rec departments some player shows up after hearing a course might be going in and tells them they can just spend the $6,000 to buy baskets and the rest is easy because they'll do the design free!

While most players seem to have an interest in designing a course, very few actually ever show up to walk the land and even less are willing to put in the hours to do the leg work to get to the point of approval.

One other aspect...if the land being used is heavily wooded there is an additional cost of clearing land. That's one expense that a lot of beginners in this process don't always take into account.

That's why you should keep it close to the chest.

I've pitched dozen of course projects over the year and have been successful in getting several in the ground. Right now I have two 9-hole course projects and an 18 hole project. Two of the three have already been funded and the third is close. Very few have any idea about where these projects are and most won't know until the courses are in the ground and ready to play.

 

[Dave242]

Thanks for the explanations. I can understand the dynamic.......unfortunate as it is.

Not knowing any more details than you all have shared and not knowing you guys personally, it seems to me however that the approach of keeping things secret until the course is in minimizes the ability to grow the enthusiasm of the local DG community to support the course. This enthusiasm and feeling of shared ownership can pay huge long-term dividends in maintaining the course, improving the course (including fund-raising), and running events.

Personally, when I get around to working on the course which I have had initial discussions with the Park about, I will be happy to risk the courses' existence (and you all can say "I told you so" if I fail) for the sake of trying to build/grow enthusiasm and a sense of ownership within the local DG community. Because without that, the course in and of itself will have very little value to me. With that said however, due to you guys' wisdom/experience I will be much more alert for dynamics from other DG'ers that could undermine the project.

 

[John Rock]

Just remember the old adage: Too many cooks will spoil the stew.

I'm all for people helping as long as they realize their boundaries. Same as when I get the chance to play a new course and don't care for parts of it, I understand that someone else has done the work to get it in and it's not my place to give design comments. If the designer asks for it, sure, I'm happy to help, and would possibly donate labor to make the changes. But I would never go to the owner for a change without the designer being present for the meeting. Idiots that try to circumvent that process cause more problems than they will ever solve.

 

[Sadjo]

The two projects that I'm working on right now have the funding. The 9 hole course already has the baskets in house and we just need to walk the property and start laying out the design. There's about a half dozen that know its location and three of us are doing a majority of the work.

The 18 hole course has the money set aside but baskets have not been ordered. I've assembled a tedam of 4 players to start the design and plans are to (hopefully) bring in Chuck Kennedy as a consultant when we have an idea of what we want to do. This course is one of those touchy projects...we've been asked for a design that includes three sets of tees and multiple pins so all skill levels can play and enjoy.

This project has a long history of beginning and then failing to get off the ground due to too many people getting involved years ago. This is our chance to finally get this project done...70 acres, a river, two small streams, lots of elevation change and the ability to be expanded even more

I was called in to be the point person on the project and while several players in the area have heard romors of the course might realize it is close again I doubt anyone has any real idea of the location...no one has figured it out yet.

 

[Lewis]

... This course is one of those touchy projects...we've been asked for a design that includes three sets of tees and multiple pins so all skill levels can play and enjoy.

You could probably get some good ideas from courses nearby that have a similar layout. I don't know if there are any in South Carolina with multiple permanent baskets, but there is one right here in Marietta, GA, that was designed by Kevin McCoy. Come give Oregon Park a look next time you're in Atlanta, and you might get some ideas. Or otherwise just play a bunch of courses with a critical eye for ideas you like and don't like. And I agree with the suggestion not to "finalize" the course too quickly. Give it some play testing time, and don't install concrete until you're sure you're happy.

Good luck!

 

[mx23ang]

We've got players around here who will stop at nothing to get their way. Backstabbing, telling lies, or any manner of nonsense just to get their own agenda on the books. It is sad but all too true. They won't start a design project because the work is hard, creating something out of nothing is not easy. But once the project is on the move, these types will try to weasel in because their ideas are the "best". If a new course owner has to deal with the drama these losers cause, they may just decide to install horseshoe pits instead.[/QUOT


I can relate to this perfectly man. My local town in the backwoods of NC didn't have a disc golf course, hell half the people there dont even know what disc golf is! Anyhow I decided to build my own course on some family land so I could have something close. Initially got help from one other buddy on the first design, we got five holes done and had to shut down the project due to land issues:wall: I introduced the game to more of my friends and now they are almost as addicted as I am:thmbup: However, after realizing I had maximum land for a nice 18 hole course and a completly different design than the original I get NO help from friends and fellow dg'ers on installation of Simple Pleasures DGC ::wall: They sure as hell dont mind coming out and playing it now that I have 9 pretty sweet holes, that I created on MY OWN! Given that the teeboxes are just leveled off areas about the size of most standard tees, and some of the baskets are homemade and need more chains on them (Im a college student, of course Im broke!:doh but for the most part its a pretty sweet course. Maybe I can get some help from members on here? If this course had workers and materials it could become quite the epic mountain disc golf destination
http://www.dgcoursereview.com/course.php?id=4741

 

[Sadjo]

My wifes family has 80 acres in SC. I've hiked that land have envisioned a course there. Maybe one day. I'd be surprised if anyone came out to help on a private course.

 

[E_Rock25]

I have lots of people who say they will help and never show up. They will always B**ch about the final product and how they would have done it this way but when they get the chance to come out and sweat they bail. I can take the heat and some of the suggestions have been good & I have tried to implement them. It seems there is a fine line between not enough help and too much help. Its just me and Kris working on the Somerset project with the help of the city. The work goes kinda slow but it is getting done...

It feels good to be able to say I did that when I get a complement about the course.

I would try to find three or four people to help you and keep it at that. The work might not get done as fast but you will not have to worry about too many people with too many different ideas about what is best.