I don't know if this is the BEST solution....but it's an innovative one I'd like to see tried more. It's been done, and is available to TDs. We considered trying it ourselves.
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Sandbagging
- Thread starter timj5304
- Start date
I don't know if this is the BEST solution....but it's an innovative one I'd like to see tried more. It's been done, and is available to TDs. We considered trying it ourselves.
jcrab66
Double Eagle Member
i like the idea of non rated pdga players and non pdga members having to play MA1. Kind of takes bagging out of the realm of possibilities until they get that first ratings update under thier belts...
biscoe
* Ace Member *
i don't care for sloped entry fees one bit... why penalize people who are good? entry fees should reflect the value of the tournament experience for a player of whatever skill level... if your tournament can't attract players at the price you set for everyone then perhaps you should examine other aspects of the tournament or lower the fees for everyone...
i would prefer seeing one low entry fee with an optional "sidebet" available to sliding fees.
i don't believe sandbagging to be any sort of systemic problem in our area. forcing unrated players into advanced is a recipe for getting beginners to never play a tournament again...
i would prefer seeing one low entry fee with an optional "sidebet" available to sliding fees.
i don't believe sandbagging to be any sort of systemic problem in our area. forcing unrated players into advanced is a recipe for getting beginners to never play a tournament again...
I dont think forcing them to play MA1 is good either. unless the TD knows them. then thats the TDs job. otherwise. just deal. we all get beat. play better beat the bagger and make him feel like a total douche.
The concept of sandbagging ignores that amateurs at the higher amateur levels generally have the skills to compete in the next division up but lack the consistency. It's not uncommon for an Intermediate to have a score that would be top 5 in Advanced, then go out in their next event and toss a 880 round. The concept of sandbagging says that the Intermediate threw the 880 round on purpose to keep his rating low so that he can keep winning Intermediate instead of moving up. The reality is that the Intermediate is Intermediate rated because while he has the skill to throw a 970 rated round, he lacks the consistency to put up a 935 rated round every time out.
So there is generally a gap between the skills an amateur player has and the rating they carry, especially in newer, young players. People will tend to take the perception that they saw the guy bomb a drive 400'+ and heard that he put up a 970 rated round, so he needs to move up and play Open. Nobody seems to notice or care the weekend he hits every tree on the course and throws two sub 900 rounds. He is just doing that on purpose to keep his rating down, right?
Sandbagging is a made-up problem that Open players invented to try to shame people into donating in the Open division. Everybody I guess wants to believe the worst in people and jump on the bandwagon that every bad round somebody throws is an attempt to cheat the rating system. Whatever. I don't think it's a problem anywhere other than in your head.
So there is generally a gap between the skills an amateur player has and the rating they carry, especially in newer, young players. People will tend to take the perception that they saw the guy bomb a drive 400'+ and heard that he put up a 970 rated round, so he needs to move up and play Open. Nobody seems to notice or care the weekend he hits every tree on the course and throws two sub 900 rounds. He is just doing that on purpose to keep his rating down, right?
Sandbagging is a made-up problem that Open players invented to try to shame people into donating in the Open division. Everybody I guess wants to believe the worst in people and jump on the bandwagon that every bad round somebody throws is an attempt to cheat the rating system. Whatever. I don't think it's a problem anywhere other than in your head.
JRW III
Double Eagle Member
Very similar to the buy-in that is in my area. Birdshot runs a monthly PDGA tournament in the Houston area. Below is the Open entry fee for the upcoming tournament.
$56 – PDGA Rating 980+ or unrated
$46 – PDGA Rating 950-979
$36 – PDGA Rating 920-949
$26 – PDGA Rating 919 and under
Before they did this, there were not many people playing Open. Now there is a larger Open field.
JRW III
Double Eagle Member
Good post. I agree with everything you said.
While not a perfect system, the current PDGA rating system provides a very good handicapping system and creates a fair tournament experience. Sure you are going to have a few minor issues of new players without ratings and rising players who are paly above their current rating, but for the most part, the system does a good job.
To keep it simple, just play your rating and don't worry about everyone else. If you want to play up, that is your choice, but I don't think anyone should be pressured to play up.
This is tough when you're trying to convince non-tournament players to give tournament play a try. Especially if they're the equivalent of 830-rated.
There are far more new players we're trying to get to join tournaments, than there are baggers intentionally staying non-members so they can keep winning lower divisions.
That's not the point of the sliding scale. The theory is that it will create a single, really big division. The top players may pay more but they're guaranteed to cash---and there'll be more cash for them. The lower players are guaranteed not to cash, but it doesn't cost them much.
Very roughly speaking, entries are proportionate to the chances of winning.
Anyway, as I said, I wouldn't want it to be universal but I'd like to see if offered more. An alternative to the every-weekend fare.
austoroc
Par Member
It seems to me that those sandbaggers don't always expect to win in the lower division they play in, but they do expect to be at least top three. (just an example... they just want to place to win prizes consistently)
I haven't played in tournaments much, but I notice this happening in league play! People do try to avoid having to move up. I do see that happen from time to time.
biscoe
* Ace Member *
td freedom is one of the things the pdga actually does fairly well with...
again- i'd prefer a flat low entry fee with optional sidebet to something ratings based to accomplish the goal of one big division (were that my goal)... imo if they don't pay the same to get in they don't deserve a share of the full payout...
League play.....if you're hunting for true sandbaggers, that's the place to start! (Which is why I qualified my comments with "sanctioned tournaments")
For the most part I think the PDGA rating system does limit sandbagging. I don't think a rated player will play bad in a few rounds just so they can stay in a lower division. And rarely once in a while you will see a nonrated player play in a lower division, but maybe that's because they lack tourney experience, and we all know we sometimes do not play up to our full potential when the pressure is on. I always shoot 3-5 strokes better in practice rounds.
We've had some local players that have played for years and have won several events in MA1. This is where I can see sandbagging can be issue. At what point does a seasoned MA1 player take the next step to move up to Open? PDGA won't force the person (and I don't think they should) but you will have players that will start to "encourage" the player to move up. I think this maybe where the player may consider playing events that offer both PRO and AM events for the same event if it's played different weekends. That way the player can see how he does in both fields (and maybe play trophy only in the PRO division).
I played MA2 my first PDGA year and several events in MA1. My 2nd year I was looking to make the jump up to MA1, but then I took time off from DG and so for my 3rd year I started out again in MA2. After placing 3rd and 1st in MA2 at the beginning of the year, and I was getting the sandbagger title at my local course, I did make the move up to MA1 permanent. Now I'm playing roughly 955 average for the year.
I think once a player starts to win events in their current rated division, that might be the time to consider moving up.
We've had some local players that have played for years and have won several events in MA1. This is where I can see sandbagging can be issue. At what point does a seasoned MA1 player take the next step to move up to Open? PDGA won't force the person (and I don't think they should) but you will have players that will start to "encourage" the player to move up. I think this maybe where the player may consider playing events that offer both PRO and AM events for the same event if it's played different weekends. That way the player can see how he does in both fields (and maybe play trophy only in the PRO division).
I played MA2 my first PDGA year and several events in MA1. My 2nd year I was looking to make the jump up to MA1, but then I took time off from DG and so for my 3rd year I started out again in MA2. After placing 3rd and 1st in MA2 at the beginning of the year, and I was getting the sandbagger title at my local course, I did make the move up to MA1 permanent. Now I'm playing roughly 955 average for the year.
I think once a player starts to win events in their current rated division, that might be the time to consider moving up.
I disagree. There's nothing wrong with winning in your division. You don't have to even consider moving up until your rating dictates so. There's nothing wrong with a player who continually wins in Advanced. He/she can go pro if/when they feel like it. Everyone else can get over it.
Nuke
Birdie Member
I've never understood this either. Everyone's goal should be to not finish first?
A lot of lower tier players fancy themselves as pro or advanced...reverse sandbagging or they want to play with better competition.
Its hard to sandbag for long in the PDGA because you are rated. If you aren't then you only get a few changes anyway.
I only have a prob with MA1s not moving up if they are really highly rated. just move up and take merch if your worried about your status. if you are 980 or higher and playing MA1 you are a big fat pusscrack.
MNcyclone
Double Eagle Member
You guys are a bunch of pansies. Oh no, you may lose!! What a shame! I rarely ever cash in open but I play. I can throw 400' so I play open. I can't put so I don't cash. I don't whine and go steal discs from actual AM players. Have fun in AM scrambling for swag you don't need and bitching about the other baggers out bagging you.
The thing that needs to change is open needs to be cheaper than AM. Open costs so much more than INT and that is the only reason I could see for not moving up. There would be absolutely no bagging if INT cost more than Open.
The thing that needs to change is open needs to be cheaper than AM. Open costs so much more than INT and that is the only reason I could see for not moving up. There would be absolutely no bagging if INT cost more than Open.
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