Sandbagging

[GT Chris]

You guys are a bunch of pansies. Oh no, you may lose!! What a shame! I rarely ever cash in open but I play. I can throw 400' so I play open. I can't put so I don't cash. I don't whine and go steal discs from actual AM players. Have fun in AM scrambling for swag you don't need and bitching about the other baggers out bagging you.

The thing that needs to change is open needs to be cheaper than AM. Open costs so much more than INT and that is the only reason I could see for not moving up. There would be absolutely no bagging if INT cost more than Open.

That's a terrible way to try and get new players to play their first tournament. It seems that folks are proposing new ratings guidelines and entry fee scales with the sole purpose of eliminating baggers, at the expense of fairness to the other 90% of players in a given tournament.

 

[Alin]

You guys are a bunch of pansies. Oh no, you may lose!! What a shame! I rarely ever cash in open but I play. I can throw 400' so I play open. I can't put so I don't cash. I don't whine and go steal discs from actual AM players. Have fun in AM scrambling for swag you don't need and bitching about the other baggers out bagging you.

The thing that needs to change is open needs to be cheaper than AM. Open costs so much more than INT and that is the only reason I could see for not moving up. There would be absolutely no bagging if INT cost more than Open.

:thmbup: I wholeheartedly agree...price is a major consideration when deciding which division to enter.

 

[MNcyclone]

That's a terrible way to try and get new players to play their first tournament. It seems that folks are proposing new ratings guidelines and entry fee scales with the sole purpose of eliminating baggers, at the expense of fairness to the other 90% of players in a given tournament.

Who the hell said I want to get new players to play their first tourney? At any rate, do you really think that a feeling of inequity would keep AMs from playing in them? What about just making the buy ins the same? All I know is that it is way too expensive to play most tourneys in Open and that I would play dozens of tourneys a year if they had a buy in of $30.

 

[patdb23]

I disagree. There's nothing wrong with winning in your division. You don't have to even consider moving up until your rating dictates so. There's nothing wrong with a player who continually wins in Advanced. He/she can go pro if/when they feel like it. Everyone else can get over it.

So are you one of those MA1 baggers that have been playing 10+ years and scared to play in Open? If you start winning in lower divisions, more than likely your rating will go up forcing you to play in the next higher division, like it did me. Not only did I play well in several events in MA2, but my rating finally surpassed 934, and yes I did feel like I was ready to move up to MA1 permanently. We've had some 970+ MA1 players in our area that were winning reguarly, and they finally did move up, and guess what their game has greatly improved. The other side of the table you have 970+ MA1 that stick around year after year, winning events, never make the move up, and their game never elevates. So it's almost a benefit for these type of players to take the leap to see the steady progression.

 

[atl scott]

So are you one of those MA1 baggers that have been playing 10+ years and scared to play in Open?

No, I've been 950 rated for about a year now and usually cash in Adv. However I did get pressured to move up when I was playing Int. as a 915 rated player just because I won a few tournaments. The problem around here was that all the Int. players were playing Adv. for whatever reason and most of the Int. field was made up of Rec. rated players. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why they were complaining when I was beating them by 10 strokes when they were playing up a division and I was playing in my correct division? The Int. rated players who were playing Adv. were just donating as well. None of it made any sense to me.

If you start winning in lower divisions, more than likely your rating will go up forcing you to play in the next higher division, like it did me. Not only did I play well in several events in MA2, but my rating finally surpassed 934, and yes I did feel like I was ready to move up to MA1 permanently.

Which is my whole point. Winning doesn't have anything to do with moving up, your rating does. If you win 10 tournaments a year in Int. but your rating still schedules you to play Int. then no one has a right to call you a bagger or pressure you to move up.

We've had some 970+ MA1 players in our area that were winning reguarly, and they finally did move up, and guess what their game has greatly improved. The other side of the table you have 970+ MA1 that stick around year after year, winning events, never make the move up, and their game never elevates. So it's almost a benefit for these type of players to take the leap to see the steady progression.

This incorrectly assumes a direct correlation between AM players playing pro and becoming better players. Perhaps those who moved up had more potential in the first place and the natural progression was to go pro? Field work and putting practice has more to do with how you play than which division you play in a PDGA tournament.

 

[DavidSauls]

I can match anecdotes. I've seen plenty of players rise to to the 950-970 range, move to Open, almost never cash, and not improve any further. All they accomplish is fattening the prizes for the cashing pros. I've seen players blow their way through Intermediate (playing with all those other intermediates didn't slow them down), blow through Advanced (playing with all those other advanced players didn't slow them down), on their way to Open and doing well there.

Gosh, almost makes you think that people are different, and perhaps there's no one right way? Nah, couldn't be.

 

[pchitti]

"The problem around here was that all the Int. players were playing Adv. for whatever reason and most of the Int. field was made up of Rec. rated players. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why they were complaining when I was beating them by 10 strokes when they were playing up a division and I was playing in my correct division? The Int. rated players who were playing Adv. were just donating as well. None of it made any sense to me."

THIS is the real issue. To many people stroking the ego and playing up, the divisions cant work if you dont choose your correct division. I dont like the 899 rec top though. Should be back around 885 IMHO.


Man if I could get on the DFL tour I WOULD play open, I have no problem throwing away somebody elses money.

 

[atl scott]

I only have a prob with MA1s not moving up if they are really highly rated. just move up and take merch if your worried about your status. if you are 980 or higher and playing MA1 you are a big fat pusscrack.

This is a silly attitude. AM is more about attitude toward the game than what you are playing for. There is nothing wrong with wanting to stay an AM. I seriously doubt 980+ rated AMs spend their time thinking about wanting to beat 935-rated players or just getting a few more discs.

High rated Ams will go pro if/when they are ready. There's nothing you can do about it. Whining about it just makes you seem... well whiny.

Bobby Jones, the greatest ball golfer of all time always played as an Amateur. And he won the grand slam.

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

^ this is such BS. if you want to maintain your am status play open and take discs. you know that is allowed. then you can stop being such a "silly" guy and play where you belong. if 980 rated ams dont care about beating 935 or getting discs why stay other than you are a gigantic vagina.

This is a silly attitude.

Bobby Jones, the greatest ball golfer of all time always played as an Amateur. And he won the grand slam.

and Bobby Jones was playing against the pros. even tho he wasnt a pro.

 

[atl scott]

if 980 rated ams dont care about beating 935 or getting discs why stay other than you are a gigantic vagina.

Not sure, but it's their choice. Just sayin'. Whining about it makes a person at least as much of a gigantic vagina as you are accusing them of being.

 

[patdb23]

No, I've been 950 rated for about a year now and usually cash in Adv. However I did get pressured to move up when I was playing Int. as a 915 rated player just because I won a few tournaments.

Which is my whole point. Winning doesn't have anything to do with moving up, your rating does. If you win 10 tournaments a year in Int. but your rating still schedules you to play Int. then no one has a right to call you a bagger or pressure you to move up.

Field work and putting practice has more to do with how you play than which division you play in a PDGA tournament.

I think if you win 10 INT events, well that's a sure sign to move up, and I bet your rating will be more than 934. I was dubbed the Int. bagger by the local crowd for a long time, as I played and won in monthlies and won a B-tier. However, I was rating around 925 and when I went out to play out-of-town events my game would suffer. So I stuck around in MA2 for awhile and after I won the same B-tier event again at my local course, I decided to move up. My rating was still around 930, but I figured I would take my lumps. The great thing about moving up was that I played with better players and that helped me to push my game further. I knew that I had better competition so I practiced more, got out into the field, and the increase in competition pushed me to work harder. Now I am playing steady 950-960 golf cashing in MA1.

I think it is a bigger jump to move up from MA1 to Open, considering you have touring pros to compete with who almost make it their living and shoot 1030 golf regularly.

 

[medicinalfunk]

Sandbagging is a made-up problem that Open players invented to try to shame people into donating in the Open division. Everybody I guess wants to believe the worst in people and jump on the bandwagon that every bad round somebody throws is an attempt to cheat the rating system. Whatever. I don't think it's a problem anywhere other than in your head.

this is one of the greatest disc golf posts i've ever read

 

[Green Aarrow]

My only problem is with players whose rating bumped them to advanced, but move back to intermediate as soon as they had a few bad rounds against stiffer competition. I got squashed plenty of times in intermediate before earning respectable finishes and figure it'll be the same when I reach advanced.

 

[TOURNEYPLAYER]

Not sure, but it's their choice. Just sayin'. Whining about it makes a person at least as much of a gigantic vagina as you are accusing them of being.

maybe, I really dont give a **** whether or not they move up because its like Mayweather, everyone knows how big a pussy they are. I have seen the dark side of sandbagging and it really turns off the new players when they come to their first tournament and get beat by 20 strokes by a guy with no rating playing rec. this then makes them not want to come back.

 

[fliphyzer]

I am playing my first tournament ever this weekend, The Shelly Sharpe Memorial.
Two buddies of mine have played several tournaments before in intermediate and never won, and are playing the Shelly with me. Their ratings are around 890 and 915, they believe they should be in intermediate simply because they have never won a tourney in that tier. I gave the 915 rated buddy a lot of crap because he is the 2nd highest rated player in intermediate, except for one guy who is coming off an injury, and would normally play advanced.

I do not follow the same logic. I have no rating yet, and intend to play advanced.
Do I think I'll win? Not likely, but I don't intend to get last either.
I believe two things 1. Playing with better players makes you a better player, and improves your level of play during said competition. 2 If people like my 2 buddies keep sandbagging(because they are) It changes the level of skill it SHOULD take to win an intermediate tournament, and hence changes whaT the intermediate tier should be, and so on.
Overall I think I'd be best to have your rating mandate your tier, but of course non-pdga members will always be the bogey in that situation.

 

[silverbullet]

i play in the division that my pdga rating puts me in INT ive played 7 tournys and have come second a couple times still no wins and rating stay about the same

 

[DavidSauls]

I am playing my first tournament ever this weekend, The Shelly Sharpe Memorial.
Two buddies of mine have played several tournaments before in intermediate and never won, and are playing the Shelly with me. Their ratings are around 890 and 915, they believe they should be in intermediate simply because they have never won a tourney in that tier. I gave the 915 rated buddy a lot of crap because he is the 2nd highest rated player in intermediate, except for one guy who is coming off an injury, and would normally play advanced.

I do not follow the same logic. I have no rating yet, and intend to play advanced.
Do I think I'll win? Not likely, but I don't intend to get last either.
I believe two things 1. Playing with better players makes you a better player, and improves your level of play during said competition. 2 If people like my 2 buddies keep sandbagging(because they are) It changes the level of skill it SHOULD take to win an intermediate tournament, and hence changes whaT the intermediate tier should be, and so on.
Overall I think I'd be best to have your rating mandate your tier, but of course non-pdga members will always be the bogey in that situation.

You lost me.

Your buddies are NOT sandbagging. They're playing in their correct division. (Actually, the 890-rated buddy is playing UP a division if he's playing Intermediate).

The notion that playing with better players makes you a better player is very very questionable.

 

[fliphyzer]

The notion that playing with better players makes you a better player is very very questionable.

lmao...yea, you have nothing to learn from someone better than you..right

And maybe PER their rating, they aren't sandbaggin, but their rating does not accurately reflect their skill level. It reflects ONE Documented tournament for each of them.
And both my TD's have been callin them sandbaggers (not in a joking way) since they signed up, one of them is a Hall of Famer.

 

[ElementZ]

The notion that playing with better players makes you a better player is very very questionable.

I disagree 100%. Playing with people better isn't just a way to get better, it's the best way to get better. You see them do things that you can't do and it makes you wonder "How did they do that? I want to be able to do that."

If you constantly practice bad form/technique by yourself, no one is going to be there to correct you and help you out.

 

[austoroc]

lmao...yea, you have nothing to learn from someone better than you..right

And maybe PER their rating, they aren't sandbaggin, but their rating does not accurately reflect their skill level. It reflects ONE Documented tournament for each of them.
And both my TD's have been callin them sandbaggers (not in a joking way) since they signed up, one of them is a Hall of Famer.

Yeah, I always wondered about my rating. I only have played one tournament this year, and I noticed that I think my rating jumped from 867 to 897. I don't know if I actually improved that much compared to the last time I played in a PDGA-sanctioned tournament.

I guess I will find out soon enough because I think I will plan on playing a couple next month and in December.

Maybe I'm wrong, but ratings seem to only help you gauge your skills if you have played at least few tournaments.