Tournament Profits

[DavidSauls]

Thing is, nothing in the PDGA rules and regulations disallows charging $20 and taking $3 out for ace and club. In fact, that might be one of the most misunderstood things about PDGA events (and frankly, a lot of disc golf tournaments in general). When the PDGA says that each division has to get 100%+ in return, it is not 100% of the gross entry fees, it is 100% of the net.

So that means that if every MA1 player at B-tier X pays $30, the PDGA does not require the TD to pay back a minimum of $30 per player in value. At most, the TD is required to pay back a minimum of $27 per player in value ($30 - $3 player fee). If the TD also wants to take another $2 per player as a club fee, or a course fee, or an insurance fee, or whatever, he's allowed. And in that case, he is only required to pay back $25 per player in value to achieve 100% return.

Same applies to the pro divisions at the same B-tier X. If 20 MPO pay $50 each and the total purse is $1400, that's exactly $500 added for a 155% payout. And the TD has all the player fees (20 X $3) covered and $40 towards miscellaneous expenses.

More events run this way than I think people realize.

It turns 100% into 100%*, but I don't know how many care. At our events we post a payout sheet that shows what fees were deducted before paying "100%".

At any rate, in the Am example of $30 entry, $25 net to prizes, it still strikes me as an awful good deal. The Ams get to play in a tournament for a net cost of $5, on average. Very few day-long or weekend-long activities going for that price nowadays.

 

[Dave242]

Thing is, nothing in the PDGA rules and regulations disallows charging $20 and taking $3 out for ace and club. In fact, that might be one of the most misunderstood things about PDGA events (and frankly, a lot of disc golf tournaments in general). When the PDGA says that each division has to get 100%+ in return, it is not 100% of the gross entry fees, it is 100% of the net.

Really what you could do, is charge an entry fee ($50 as an example), take out $5 for PDGA fees and expenses, then take out $40 as a club fee. Now the net fee (the basis) is $5. Then the club as a sponsor could kick cash back into the event and advertise 100%, 200%, 300%.....all the way up to 900% payout and still make money to pocket off of the wholesale/retail differential.

Goofy, crazy, slimy, confusing, meaningless.....but legal as far as I can tell.

 

[Dave242]

At our events we post a payout sheet that shows what fees were deducted before paying "100%".

On a more serious note, I am 100% a proponent of this sort of financial disclosure.

Strangely, when I suggested this several months ago (and told people I used to do this when I ran events), people thought is was a bad idea. Their rationale was that this stuff is none of the business of tournament participants.

 

[Three Putt]

NO!!!

There is NOT an expectation to take money from ams and put it to pros!!

That is LAUGHABLE!!!

Eh, I guess laughable is a perspective. The Open divisions expect whatever cash you advertise and/or the tier calls for to be there. I don't think many open players think about or care where it came from so long as it was there.

I have some of the best payouts in NC and I don't take money from ams and apply to pros EVER!! I apply profits that normally I would keep since I bought the discs that are being used.

I've NEVER seen an event where part of am entry went to pros. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER. And I've played in and ran more tournaments that almost everyone on this board.

:\ I guess what I'm hearing him say and what you are saying seem like two different things.

He was talking about the "Am Scam." The Am Scam really isn't a scam, it accounting. Get a disc for $10, give it as a prize and value it at $15. What you do with the $5 is what you do. Some people say that money started in the Am payout and should stay in the Am payout, and if it gets taken out they freak out and scream Am Scam. Other people say you got a disc at a fair retail price and the extra $5 is fair game for the TD to put into the Open payout (but not for the TD to keep, 'cause that makes you a sleazy greedy thieving bastard.)

I've never heard an Open player come right out and say that the wholesale/retail differential should be applied to the Open payout, they just always say the payouts need to be bigger and never say how. :|

You seem to be talking about a straight-up "the Am's paid $25, we are going to take $5 off the top and add that to the Open Payout." I've never seen that done. I think using the wholesale/retail differential ends up giving you more money to work with anyway.

Taking the wholesale/retail differential out of the Am payout and using it as cash added in the Open payout was common practice back in the day. I know KCWO was run like like that for many years, and at least in the Midwest that was how disc golf events were done in the 90's. If that is what you are saying you have never seen anyone do, then your area is different from mine.

 

[billnchristy]

NO!!!

NEVER. NEVER. NEVER. NEVER.

All I could think for the rest of this thread:

 

[dehaas]

Maybe my local club is unique, but all of their merch is priced accordingly, maybe a buck cheaper than local retail pricing (pias or whoever). If you are a club member and are paying cash before a league night or whatever you get an additional buck or 2 off (don't remember the exact discount). Merch vouchers won at tournaments get plastic at the sticker price, which is still cheaper than if you were paying cash at a local brick and mortar. Everybody seems to be happy with the situation, if you wanna pay cash you're essentially getting Marshall street pricing or you're getting it for free with a few bucks markup included.

 

[DavidSauls]

On a more serious note, I am 100% a proponent of this sort of financial disclosure.

Strangely, when I suggested this several months ago (and told people I used to do this when I ran events), people thought is was a bad idea. Their rationale was that this stuff is none of the business of tournament participants.

I'm not sure what we do is 100% disclosure.

We post how the payouts are calculated:

$xx entry - $3 greens fee (private course, as noted on flyer) - $2 PDGA fee - $2 state fee = $xx net times xx players = $xx payout

We don't publish how much we paid for merchandise, what was donated, etc. That is the kind of stuff I'd consider the TD's business, not the players'.

We also don't post all our other expenses, though it's tempting to do so. Lots of people use the porta-johns, but nobody ever leaves a tip to pay for them.

 

[Sadjo]

I've run a lot of tournaments over the years. I've raised thousands of dollars that covered all fees, allowed for all players (including those playing Open) to get better than average player packs, added payout to Open and other divisions, provided lunch to all in attendance (players and guests) out of my own pocket and given CTPS for each division each round that consisted of two OOP discs and a shirt and there were players that still complained and bitched about where all the money went.

And that is why I decided last year was going to be my last year running events for a while (other than Juniors only events).

I've always enjoyed giving back to the sport I have played and loved since I was 10 years old...but I will let others run tournaments...I will focus on selling courses and spending more time coaching my kids in Disc Golf and playing from now on.

I can't speak for how others run events...i just know I gave back more in value than players ever paid in and I always made sure sponsors were well known and publicized to those that played my events...and still there is someone that has to complain.

 

[Ripper]

So no you are calling me dumb? It's cool. I'll keep running events with 100 players and making people from all over the southeast come to my event.

Last year I had 10 states and 3 countries. Ok, worlds was here.

This year, I have 6 states repped. Not for a B Tier. Must be doing something right. Not bad for a non trust worthy dumb person, huh?

In my eyes if you are running these events and not making money it's allot of wasted time. Maybe not dumb, but in my eyes not smart. I appreciate what TD's do but make money off events. Make it worth your time!

 

[Tiny]

Payouts should be trophy only for ams, Reduce the cost, make it trophy only, but still give em a players pack. Boom problem solved.

Simple, stop glorifying am wins. Treat it like ball golf. Give them a reason to move up and play against people of the right caliber. Catering to amateurs creates baggers. *cough* Lower the entry fee, reduce the pay out, give em their players packs, but leave it at that. Don't reward people for being better than other okay people. REC, INT and ADV to me are just stepping stones to play open.

 

[Emoney]

Iam an advanced player and im going pro this year or early next. I dont play for plastic, i play to win. That being said, i use my plastic winnings to offset the cost of the tourney.

I personally like the idea of a players pack and cool trophies only.

I do have a little story that bugged me though that goes with this thread a little. I played a tourney in AZ and i finished 3rd. I got my little ticket that says 65$ merch. I was one of the last groups to pick through the plastic so i really didnt get anything i wanted or threw. I didnt care cause i shot a 1000 rated round that day to redeem my poor start. Anyway, after the players used there merch tickets to buy plastic at 16$ for champ/z and 18$ for esp/star, the TD said "is everyone done getting there winnings?, ok, whatever discs are left are 10$ a piece! "

The very same disc i used my merch tick to get for 18$ was just sold to some guy for 10$. It erked me a little and made me suspicious, i think it was more of a human nature thing then a shady thing. But when i see stuff like that it makes me think.

I know there are alot of TDs that run tourneys cause they love the sport but im sure there are a fair share that see a $$ signs. Im all for them getting paid for what they do but if it takes from what should go into the tourney pot, it rubs me the wrong way.

Also, most pros i know never give back to the sport unless moneys involved. AMs are the whole sport and the PDGA knows this. The reason the system isnt changing any time soon is because of the ripple affect. Its never as simple as it seems.

I will just be happy to get to the open division so i dont have to deal with all this BS. Things are a little more cut and dry in open.

 

[discgolf4lif3]

emoney

ditto "I personally like the idea of a players pack and cool trophies only. "

love getting sweet drifits and trophies. alot of the trophys ive seen lately are hand made which pretty neat.

 

[iacas]

Payouts should be trophy only for ams, Reduce the cost, make it trophy only, but still give em a players pack. Boom problem solved.

A lot of golf tournaments don't give out great player's packs. Sometimes you get a towel, or a polo shirt. Golf tournaments are run because they're profitable. Usually they're for a charity, but that's the point - they raise money. The tournament directors volunteer their time to raise thousands of dollars for the charity or organization.

I think that sometimes even asking for a great player's pack is unnecessary.

Why are disc golfers so reluctant to pay for someone to put on a good tournament that allows them to compete and have some fun?

 

[biscoe]

On a more serious note, I am 100% a proponent of this sort of financial disclosure.

Strangely, when I suggested this several months ago (and told people I used to do this when I ran events), people thought is was a bad idea. Their rationale was that this stuff is none of the business of tournament participants.

i don't consider it any business of the players at my events. do you ask mcdonald's how much they paid for the beef in your burger? no- but if you don't feel it is a good value you do not purchase it. as best i can tell the players who have attended my events over the years have believed them to be a good value because the players keep coming back.

 

[Dana]

i would, scratch that, I do prefer the profits going directly to the TD/club. I would love to see more TDs making a living off of running top notch events. i dont want to see some random Pro who gives nothing back (majority of the time) getting a share of the profits of the people who made it happen for them.

i don't understand why so many people in this sport are so geared towards catering to the Pros. By in large what do they give back to the DG community normally?
clinics? nope they generally get paid for that. maybe local pros will help you if they like you.
buying plastic from TD/club? almost never
helping with course work? only the local community (pros and ams) helps with that. I would love to see a touring pro randomly stop somewhere and help for a day putting a course in. i have a feeling i may wait a long time.

Are you serious here?

 

[Dave242]

i don't consider it any business of the players at my events. do you ask mcdonald's how much they paid for the beef in your burger? no- but if you don't feel it is a good value you do not purchase it. as best i can tell the players who have attended my events over the years have believed them to be a good value because the players keep coming back.

It is not any of their business and it is not owed them. Like David pointed out, 100% transparency (mainly costs of merch) is not needed....and I am not suggesting that.

But IMO, volunteering the basics of how we came to the net cost (basis for payout) is a very good practice (course fees, pdga fees, insurance fees, other costs that are shared by all). Listing the fixed costs and stating the the club/TD is adding sponsorship dollars to cover them hurts nothing. Looks good to also list the other sponsorship money the club/TD is adding from their own coffers of from sponsors they have signed up.

My thoughts about why this is a good practice is that I have witnessed tons of times people adding up the payout and then bitching about things. This is a small minority who do this vocally/publicly, but negative news tends to spread much more quickly than good news and usually lots of people latch onto this negativity. If you want people to speculate, leave them in the dark to create their own scenarios.

By providing information, the the number of whiners will go down. And maybe more importantly, the people who wish to defend the TD have the data to do so. If the TDs need to defend themselves, they sound defensive and it undermines the event. If others defend the TDs, it builds cohesiveness and builds the event.

It costs nothing to volunteer the info, and can head off a ton of headaches.

 

[Lewis]

Why are disc golfers so reluctant to pay for someone to put on a good tournament that allows them to compete and have some fun?

I suspect it's because disc golfers are used to free play at public parks. The fact that the equipment is cheap and the courses are free to play is very attractive to unwealthy athletes, but a side effect is that they want to be able to play in a tournament without having to pay for it. Paying them back their entry fees in merchandise helps them feel like they haven't spent anything on the event, which is what they've come to expect out of disc golf.

My humble opinion is that the price to play in an event is negotiated freely between the participant and the TD, and the price of payout to the pros is negotiated freely between the pros and the TD. If the pros are getting a big chunk of the tournament's revenue plowed into their payout purse, that's part of the negotiation between them and the TD.

This is my perspective of an amateur who places no value whatsoever on the presence (or absence) of open division players at the PDGA events I've attended. From my perspective, the pros and other open level players may as well not be there, because I never see them during the rounds, and from what I've seen, they normally don't offer any presentation or clinics between or after the rounds of competition. Since what the pros do at or win from the events isn't relevant to my experience, I don't worry about it. From a TD's perspective, since he is the person managing the pro purse, he should be the person asking himself what value they add to his tournament that justifies his paying them for their attendance. If he decides that having the pros there will somehow help "sell" the event to the amateurs or the event's sponsors (aka the event's customers), then he should reward them for their "services" rendered during their participation in the event. If he doesn't see any benefit to encouraging the open level players to enter, why else would he run a B tier or higher event?

My instincts could be wrong, but this whole argument seems a bit like people getting their noses out of joint when they find out how much somebody else in the office makes: we're all much happier not worrying about the numbers on other guy's paycheck.

 

[Lewis]

This is my perspective of an amateur who places no value whatsoever on the presence (or absence) of open division players at the PDGA events I've attended. From my perspective, the pros and other open level players may as well not be there, because I never see them during the rounds, and from what I've seen, they normally don't offer any presentation or clinics between or after the rounds of competition. Since what the pros do at or win from the events isn't relevant to my experience, I don't worry about it. From a TD's perspective, since he is the person managing the pro purse, he should be the person asking himself what value they add to his tournament that justifies his paying them for their attendance. If he decides that having the pros there will somehow help "sell" the event to the amateurs or the event's sponsors (aka the event's customers), then he should reward them for their "services" rendered during their participation in the event. If he doesn't see any benefit to encouraging the open level players to enter, why else would he run a B tier or higher event?

To put a finer point on it, would the amateurs who complain about the accounting practice known as "Am Scam" rather play in amateur-only events? If not, can you describe why you would rather play in an event that has both amateur and open divisions, even if you're not going to compete in them yourself? The value seen by the amateur of having the pros there is the amount of his entry fee he should be willing to add to the pro purse.

 

[iacas]

I suspect it's because disc golfers are used to free play at public parks.

I suspect so too, but it doesn't take an IQ north of 70 to notice that there's a bit of a difference between showing up and tossing some discs with your friends versus what goes in in a tournament.

The fact that the equipment is cheap and the courses are free to play is very attractive to unwealthy athletes, but a side effect is that they want to be able to play in a tournament without having to pay for it. Paying them back their entry fees in merchandise helps them feel like they haven't spent anything on the event, which is what they've come to expect out of disc golf.

The question is: is that the way to go? Why should disc golf care about those golfers? How many of these three-disc types play in tournaments? What if the standard was fewer tournaments, but higher costs and more professionally operated?

I've seen 3-on-3 tournaments that cost $300 per team to enter and offer nothing but a t-shirt to every participant and a trophy to each winner and runner up in a few different divisions.

You can buy a basketball and play free on thousands of courts across the country.

The problem, too, is that the longer this is the way things are done, the more entrenched the idea will be that tournaments should cost pocket change AND players should "get their money back," constantly devaluing the actual "tournament experience."

 

[mashnut]

While I agree that currently players don't put nearly enough value on the TDs time and effort creating a great tournament experience, I don't think the answer is to follow golf's model. Making it prohibitively expensive to play in events would almost completely eliminate the current amateur competition, and that would make it almost impossible to run any events for the "pros" without completely changing the structure of those events too.

You say "why should disc golf care about these golfers?", and I think that's the wrong way to go. Encouraging people to understand what goes into running a tournament and accepting that they shouldn't expect their money back every time they play is one thing, pushing out everyone who's not wealthy enough to play $300 events is just not in the spirit of disc golf. Your background is in a sport that has always catered to wealthy, upper class folks and that's just not what most people want from disc golf in my experience.