YOU make the call!!!

[toothyfish]

I can see why this is such a tough situation to legislate. My first reaction was to agree with toothyfish and eliminate any mention of intent, if a disc in motion hits your gear it's interference, period. But then there's the issue of hitting someone else's gear, should they be penalized for another player's bad shot if they had no chance to get themselves or their stuff out of the way? (assuming the bad backwards richochet off the tree scenario)

Just for kicks, I looked up the USGA rules (ball golf) There's a whole section on each possible scenario: hitting your own self, caddie, or equipment, hitting another player, caddie, or equipment, even if you hit spectators, animals, etc. I figured it would be very detailled because a) ball golf has been around for centuries, and b) I'm sure it's all happened!

In case you care, in ball golf, it's a one stroke penalty if you hit your own self and/or stuff. Ball is played as it lies, within the entire set of rules on that subject. Intentions are not even a factor so the subjectivity is removed. There's quite a lengthy section...

If you hit someone else's, there were a few outcomes, but an option to replay the stroke with NO penalty was among them. Again, quite a bit of detail...

 

[billnchristy]

That's already true once the disc is in motion on a throw. All obstacles are considered part of the course unless they showed up on the hole during the round (like limbs dropping, vehicles, players' bags and chairs). In which case, players can ask that they be relocated.

Yes but the interference rule should reference this and basically say: "Players can ask for items to be relocated that appear on course during a round of play (such as bags, vehicles and chairs) upto the point where the player starts his 30 second countdown. Once the "shot clock" is started any objects on the course become part of the course until the disc in question stops all motion."

This eliminates bags, people, the ice cream truck etc... from being interference on EACH throw and allows for the next guy to say Hey, move that damn ice cream truck from in front of the basket! before his throw.

 

[zenbot]

Please move that damn ice cream truck...but before you do what can I get for seventy-five cents?

 

[tallpaul]

I myself, like most players who played the game when "intent of the game" was the rule; rather than working rules to gain benefit in one direction or the other; would have played the next shot from where I thought my disc would have stopped rolling; asking, "This seem about right?" This sport has become super douchey in regards to rules and attempting to throw other player's off their games by the use of them....

 

[zenbot]

I myself, like most players who played the game when "intent of the game" was the rule; rather than working rules to gain benefit in one direction or the other; would have played the next shot from where I thought my disc would have stopped rolling; asking, "This seem about right?" This sport has become super douchey in regards to rules and attempting to throw other player's off their games by the use of them....

Does this mean you'll be moving on to Foosball?

Those guys can be douchey too. Have fun defining a "slop" goal.

 

[billnchristy]

Please move that damn ice cream truck...but before you do what can I get for seventy-five cents?

And can you spot me a buck?

 

[tallpaul]

All the same; it's good to know the correct ruling; because huge amounts of players playing these days would want some official type of ruling; much like everyone needs either the church or the law to determine their behavior in daily life....

 

[tallpaul]

Said "slop" ruling would have given me a tougher shot than was required.

 

[NothinButChing]

no penalty... too late?

 

[tallpaul]

In my experience, in tourney play; certified rules officials, when asked, always gave me and ruling that was more favorable than the one I was planning on choosing. At the same time; I don't know that I was ever after a two stroke penalty on anyone.

 

[tallpaul]

Never had the wrists for foosball. But, I have largely moved on from tourney play....largely for reasons of timeliness and douchery. I appreciate the fact that many here are desirous of tourney play; helps you determine "where you stand in the game." Get back to me in twenty years; and unless you are quite good; after some "industry cash", or (best case scenario), have developed long term player relationships...and I am willing to bet you won't be playing tourneys either.
I was simply pointing out that I'm hearing more and more stories; especially in the less skilled and newer player divisions, about persons making arbitrary rule callings that are not based on fact. This particular example points this out concretely. Had not someone who actually knew what the ruling should be, been called, two prohibitive strokes would have bee assessed. My choice was a way of essentially assessing one stroke, but still allowing for the saving of the stroke with a great shot. What's this game supposed to be about?
I anticipate the rules are rules responses...but would point out that these responses should go in the "what is wrong with America" thread.

 

[Thumber]

In my experience, in tourney play; certified rules officials, when asked, always gave me and ruling that was more favorable than the one I was planning on choosing. At the same time; I don't know that I was ever after a two stroke penalty on anyone.

Thats a good point....going for a 2 stroke penalty on someone when you aren't even right about the rule, and you have to call in a TD (who in turn doesn't know the rule and has to call Big Brother) is a major DB move.

Could you be penalized for wasting time? Give the benefit of the doubt and stop trying to win at all costs regardless of how you do it.

 

[zenbot]

Thats a good point....going for a 2 stroke penalty on someone when you aren't even right about the rule, and you have to call in a TD (who in turn doesn't know the rule and has to call Big Brother) is a major DB move.

Could you be penalized for wasting time? Give the benefit of the doubt and stop trying to win at all costs regardless of how you do it.

So here's another question. If somebody doesn't second a call are you still allowed to complain to a TD.

If you're deciding intent who would be a better judge? 3 people that witnessed the action or some guy that didn't witness it but took an open book test on rules?

 

[tallpaul]

Also....see Steady Ed's DGA rules for what he perceived as "intent of the game." These would seem ridiculous by today's standards; but were based on having fun.
I think we should get back to the discussion of not moving a blade of grass for upshots/putts....because this would be disturbing the course. All upshots/putts should be made from a stance of levitation henceforth. Also, if a person is breathing too loud in the background....well...you know what that means.

 

[DavidSauls]

No penalty.

For those who reference other sports, I can think of a number of places in other sports where "intent" affects the rule, especially interference rules.

For those who would have contact with the thrower's bag, behind his lie, be a penalty, think of where that leads. How far should a player be expected to put his equipment from the basket? The distance of the furthest conceivable roll? How does that work with the 30-second rule, and speed of play in general? Might it not be better to keep the bag next to his lie, where he can at least attempt to move it, than out of his reach?

 

[zenbot]

No penalty.

For those who reference other sports, I can think of a number of places in other sports where "intent" affects the rule, especially interference rules.

For those who would have contact with the thrower's bag, behind his lie, be a penalty, think of where that leads. How far should a player be expected to put his equipment from the basket? The distance of the furthest conceivable roll? How does that work with the 30-second rule, and speed of play in general? Might it not be better to keep the bag next to his lie, where he can at least attempt to move it, than out of his reach?

It would seem that he doesn't even need to make the attempt to move his bag. He was just trying to do what he thought was the right thing. That earns you Headrick points redeemable at all DGA retailers.

 

[DavidSauls]

It would seem that he doesn't even need to make the attempt to move his bag. He was just trying to do what he thought was the right thing. That earns you Headrick points redeemable at all DGA retailers.

"Always do right. This will gratify some people and astonish the rest."
Mark Twain

 

[Grover]

This sport has become super douchey in regards to rules and attempting to throw other player's off their games by the use of them....

I played very little in the mid to late 90s and not at all in this century until last year. I gotta agree that it is astounding the change in noobs who are "super douchey" about certain rules instead of just enjoying a nice relaxing casual round...:wall::doh:

That said, I'd think the tourneys should probably have more concrete rules than "intent". I don't let cash get in the way of an enjoyable casual round and guys playing for cash shouldn't be subjected to rules based on perceived "intent". I think the ball golf rules make serious sense for serious players going for serious cash.

In the "learn something new everyday" category, I will, from now on, place my bag long ways to maximize the "catch area" downhill from the basket!

(at least until the rule gets changed)

 

[dodgeball]

For those who would have contact with the thrower's bag, behind his lie, be a penalty, think of where that leads. How far should a player be expected to put his equipment from the basket? The distance of the furthest conceivable roll? How does that work with the 30-second rule, and speed of play in general? Might it not be better to keep the bag next to his lie, where he can at least attempt to move it, than out of his reach?

I think most casual players would agree with you, but I think tourny players might feel a little differently. I could see them supporting a rule change to assess a one stroke penalty any time your own shot strikes your own equipment exactly because of incidents like this. Most of the time you're throwing out and away from your equipment, but these uphill putts are sort of a unique case and your bad stopping a rolling disc could make for a BIG difference in your lie for the next shot.

 

[jimbosprint]

Isn't a disc rolling away from the pin down a hill enough of a penalty?

Now if you drop your bag in front of a rolling disc just to stop it that would be different.