Iced over creek OB

[dbstrat]

My group usually plays that the water in the creek is OB, but if it dries out then the OB is gone. When it is mostly gone but iced over you get a thin layer of ice and leaves with dry ground an inch underneath. You step on it and it breaks apart leaving you standing on broken ice on top of a dry creek.

I realize a TD can make whatever ruling for league/tourney rounds (I played a league round where if you can stand on the ice, you play from the lie without penalty), but is there a rule of thumb about how to consider an iced over but dry creek? I did try searching the net with no real answer to this so it may just be an edge case that requires a house rule?

 

[Steve West]

There are no general rules about what is or is not OB. Whatever the TD or course designer says goes.

 

[Jay Dub]

What I always do for casual cash rounds is play it as surrounded by water or not. I understand it's ice but if it wasn't ice the disc would be surrounded by water. So in my round that disc would be OB.

 

[davetherocketguy]

Its a casual round so I'd suggest making it clear prior to throwing the hole(s). Even our league tag rounds I run I really don't care how stuff like this is called so long as everyone on the card agrees before play begins. Some folks play "winter rules" where their may not be any OB or hazards or if it's safe you can play off of the ice, etc. Having these things cleared up prior to play seems to smooth things over and make for a better casual experience.

-Dave

 

[dbstrat]

Its a casual round so I'd suggest making it clear prior to throwing the hole(s). Even our league tag rounds I run I really don't care how stuff like this is called so long as everyone on the card agrees before play begins. Some folks play "winter rules" where their may not be any OB or hazards or if it's safe you can play off of the ice, etc. Having these things cleared up prior to play seems to smooth things over and make for a better casual experience.

-Dave

Yeah, that's key. I'm of the same mindset that I don't really care but would like to know so there isn't ambiguity should the situation come up to avoid the butt hurt

 

[araytx]

Ice is water.

 

[ray1970]

Ice is water.

So is steam and humidity too I suppose.

I guess any disc thrown on a humid day in Texas is going to be OB no matter where it lands.

 

[krupicka]

Deleted comment

 

[coupe]

Ice is water.

Not for purposes of casual relief:

QA-CAS-2: Does the term "body of water" in the casual relief rule include bodies of ice and snow?

No. "Casual water" as listed in the rules is water as it's commonly understood, in its liquid form. The rules do not grant casual relief from snow, ice, or even steam should you encounter it. Note that the Director can announce that ice or snow are casual obstacles, in which case they may be moved if they are on or behind your lie.

which understanding, by logical extension of the principle embodied therein (801.01), can legitimately be extended to apply to ice as it pertains to OB as well.

 

[R-Ogre]

If we're not talking tournament rounds, doesn't the overarching casual play custom of "when in doubt, if you can play it from the lie it's not OB" come into play?

 

[biscoe]

Lake Superior doesn't stop being a body of water when it is frozen on top, nor does any other body of water. Defining ice on a body of water as a playable surface is a horrible idea- potentially fatally so.

 

[PhattD]

At our local course we play the Jesus rule. If you can walk on the water it's no longer OB.

 

[krupicka]

Lake Superior doesn't stop being a body of water when it is frozen on top, nor does any other body of water. Defining ice on a body of water as a playable surface is a horrible idea- potentially fatally so.

The problem is it really depends on the particular course. I have played some ice bowls where the entire 10m circle area around the target had flooded with a couple inches of water and froze. That was a playing surface.

Of course when I missed my putt, the putter slid like a hockey puck until it found a patch of snow on the ice.

 

[biscoe]

The problem is it really depends on the particular course. I have played some ice bowls where the entire 10m circle area around the target had flooded with a couple inches of water and froze. That was a playing surface.

Of course when I missed my putt, the putter slid like a hockey puck until it found a patch of snow on the ice.

A frozen puddle is not a body of water imo, a frozen lake/river/stream/retention pond/etc. is.

 

[krupicka]

Bodies of water are not OB by default. If playing from the ice is dangerous, then yes the TD should mark it as OB. It depends on the course. Consider there may also be courses where playing on a frozen lake in the middle of winter is part of the hook to play that course in February. There are some locales where roads only exist in the winter as they go across frozen lakes. One could setup courses on such lakes.

 

[dbstrat]

Ice is water.

Snow is also water.

 

[Jay Dub]

Beer is water.

 

[dbstrat]

Lake Superior doesn't stop being a body of water when it is frozen on top, nor does any other body of water. Defining ice on a body of water as a playable surface is a horrible idea- potentially fatally so.

No doubt, but a creek that is regularly dry during the year is a bit more ambiguous than a lake. Even without ice we sometimes have to make judgement calls about OB because the creek doesn't have a 100% flat surface so when it gets lower you can get high spots that are dry-ish and the rule is that if any part of the disc is touching in-bounds then the disc is in bounds. The ice is just another variable on top of that.

806.02 Out-of-Bounds

B. A disc is out-of-bounds if its position is clearly and completely surrounded by an out-of-bounds area.

 

[txmxer]

Ice is in the freezer.

 

[PhattD]

Beer is water.

So if I spill beer on my disc is it OB?