Hardest hole you have played

[knettles]

What is difficult?

I'm being serious. We have a general feel for it, but "difficult to do what?" To score low? That's very problematic. By that standard any wide open 1000 ft hole is difficult.

Or is difficult "to make the score that an expert for the skill level of the course would make"?

And that ties into "difficult for what skill level"? I submit that it is theoretically possible to design a Green level hole that is more difficult than a Gold level hole. That means a Green level hole that it is more difficult for an 800 rated Green level expert than a Gold level hole for a 1000 rated Gold player.

Hmm. I've always felt like the more difficult a hole, the bigger scoring gap there is between beginner and expert players. I don't know if this definition always works, but I feel like it's fitting.

 

[Discette]

Hole 11 Winthrop Gold USDGC. Gives me butterflies just thinking about it. It requires placement off the tee and for a hacker like me, the second and third shot also put a premium on proper placement. Pressure filled from start to finish.

 

[Nenja]

Almost 1000' with ob on both sides and about 10' from the basket with a slight slope. I'm happy with a double boogey on this one.

 

[Tripper]

Hole 6 at Barnet Park in Kinston, NC has one of the most insane holes I have played. Perhaps if i had a roller it might be playable but for me this was just try to get past a couple trees at a time. Short hole with no real line that i could find.

https://www.dgcoursereview.com/view_image.php?id=904&p=0ae1a224

 

[t i m]

And Hole #17 at Iron Hill has fewer trees now ... several gentlemen were taking down three trees when I was there a few weeks ago. Genuine par 5 hole with a 4 definitely possible.

Thanks for the update Cereal and Jimi... sorry to hear #17 is losing trees. It was open enough already (by Iron Hill standards).

Sadly, it's been two years since I've been up there. Our first child is due the week of the Delaware tourney this year, so no go for that one either. But hoping to sneak up that way for King of the Hill--my favorite IH tourney anyway.

 

[t i m]

Take Blue for example: they have player ratings in the range of 926 to 975. I was refining a 975 PR player as the "expert" of this group because they have the highest skill level.

Fair enough if you want to use it as a term of art. I'm going to stay in the "it's an oxymoron" camp. To me that describes a very low skilled player as an "expert" at his level of play. This would be like saying an illiterate person who can read the word "stop" on signs, but nothing else, is an expert reader at the illiterate level. I'm okay with not being a 1000 rated player and would never think of myself as an "expert at my skill level."

So what is the purpose of using that term for people of reduced skill. Why not, "blue level player" or "red level player"?

I generally agree with Doofenshmirtz here, though I understand Olorin's point. Maybe instead of "expert" I think it's more helpful to think of people who are "consistent" within a rating... there are blue level players who sometimes shoot 1050 and sometimes shoot 900... I wouldn't call those players "expert" blue players, even if their rating is 975...

On the flip side, there are players who go out and make very few mistakes, play consistently, and their scores almost never deviate from 950-1000... those are much more likely to be "expert" blue players.

Expert has as much to do with mental game and consistency as it does with score.

I think the same could be said for pretty much any rating bracket...

A perfect example here in Northern VA is Carlos Rigby... he's rated in the mid-800s... but he's won his division at PDGA Worlds four times (Senior Legends 3X, now Grand Legends--admittedly, there's not a lot of competition above age 75). He plays almost every day and plays very consistently. He's a true expert, but he started playing in his 70s and has never had a rating over 870. He's a perfect example of an "expert" red-level player, if there is such a thing.

 

[Craig639]

I've played a lot of challenging holes, there's no way I could pinpoint the hardest one, they all kind of blur together after a while. In order for a hole to really make an impression on me, I must play it often - one of the holes that I play regularly that stands out is Plymouth Creek #8. The course is a fun technical pitch and putt, except for #8 which is killer. Seems like it plays about 600' in the shape of a backwards question mark, the tee at the dot, basket at the far end.

A creek (ob) flows along the entire left side and the entire fairway slopes towards the creek. I've come close to having a look at a 3, I maybe have come out of there with a 4, but often it's closer to double digits after having rolled into the creek a couple times and hitting multiple trees.

I think if I played it often enough I would 3 it once in a while, it would take one helluva hyzer that finds its way through the trees to a pinpoint landing area that will give a look at a big turnover or thumber to the pin. Or conceivably (in the winter with no leaves on the trees to open up higher lines), a roller/turnover that finishes high and right giving a tight window for a thumber over the top to the pin.

Many moons ago during league (when it was one round long, one short), Pete O from Hansen went 3, 3....insane. He is a lefty though!

 

[Future_Primitive]

#12@ Albion...1100 feet with no landing area beyond about 350', and an OB road crossing fairway at about 300'. Pond to carry. Not bad once over pond, but tough to get over...don't have any idea how anyone could "3" that hole.

I will second that call Tim, #12 at Victory Park is definitely one of if not the toughest DG hole I have played. Happen to have an overhead map of this hole that I sent to my friend so he knew what I was crying about.

Pad in lower right corner, supposedly 990 feet but sure feels longer. OB road runs across fairway around 300 feet. The swimming pond just past the road is right around 360 feet, so ideally you want to land after road and before the pond to give you a chance to make it across the pond on 2nd shot. Pond is approx 300 feet across. Mando telephone pole that takes right side mostly out of play.

Weaker arms or bad drives usually have to advance along the left side filled with trees and OB fence that runs the whole way. Once you get by the sandy beach past the pond you have approx 280-300 ft to the basket. Trees run along left side and one giant tree on right, OB fence on left and OB walk path on right. And the basket is tucked up under some short trees to top it off. Just OB danger galore on this long SOB. :wall:

 

[biscoe]

18 on the Lions course at Lake Marshall eats my lunch. Probably 800 feet or so in the long- either across or around the water and then another 350 or so up a wooded chute. Now that I think about it though Hole 9 on the Lair course is probably harder.

 

[pauldst]

Should there be different par standards for different course levels (Gold, Blue, White, Red, Green)?

My thoughts are posted here at my (very basic) disc golf course design site.

I can also post the text here for people to read if that is easier.

I generally agree with Doofenshmirtz here, though I understand Olorin's point. Maybe instead of "expert" I think it's more helpful to think of people who are "consistent" within a rating... there are blue level players who sometimes shoot 1050 and sometimes shoot 900... I wouldn't call those players "expert" blue players, even if their rating is 975...

On the flip side, there are players who go out and make very few mistakes, play consistently, and their scores almost never deviate from 950-1000... those are much more likely to be "expert" blue players.

Expert has as much to do with mental game and consistency as it does with score.

I think the same could be said for pretty much any rating bracket...

A perfect example here in Northern VA is Carlos Rigby... he's rated in the mid-800s... but he's won his division at PDGA Worlds four times (Senior Legends 3X, now Grand Legends--admittedly, there's not a lot of competition above age 75). He plays almost every day and plays very consistently. He's a true expert, but he started playing in his 70s and has never had a rating over 870. He's a perfect example of an "expert" red-level player, if there is such a thing.

Olorin, I started out thinking I'd totally disagree with you, but read what you wrote, what Tim wrote, and I kinda get it.

Why I disagree: I watched an 'episode' of NOVA recently called "Secrets of the Viking Sword." In it, a contemporary master blacksmith recreates one of the Viking swords that was like the Rolls Royce of swords, the ones that archaeologists find in the ground today in decent shape because they were so advanced. They were made of steel supperior to anything betweeen then and about 100 years ago, and the technology and craftsmanship was likewise superior. This guy nailed it, but it took days to do it, and there are few people in the world who could (a couple of dozen?) He is an expert. In a field like that, nobody goes, I'm an expert at making bad swords, or I'm an expert at mediocre swords. You are an expert or not, and can make easy stuff or hard. You're not an expert if you can't do easy and hard stuff...really hard stuff.

What I get, though--and I'm not sure this is exactly what you're saying--is that maybe we should reccognize experts who are the best at something within certain limitations. Not experts for the skill level, that would be a fake expert. Rather, expert within a category that has limitations, generally age or gender. Like Tim wrote, consistency is important.

 

[t i m]

18 on the Lions course at Lake Marshall eats my lunch. Probably 800 feet or so in the long- either across or around the water and then another 350 or so up a wooded chute. Now that I think about it though Hole 9 on the Lair course is probably harder.

Just saw the reviews on how Lake Marshall is coming along. Looks like DG nirvana--Can't wait to make it out there!

 

[BigAl724]

Hole 14 at Nockamixon is up there for me. I thought it would never end.

Others:

Moraine 16
Harmon Hills 17
Selah Ranch Lakeside 4 and 7
A couple of holes at Sugaree but I can't remember the numbers

 

[DiscJunkie]

I can't speak for anyone else on what is the hardest hole I've played...
but for me Winthrop Gold #5 is the one that eats my lunch and laughs at me.
I've played it over several iterations and only dream of parring it.
I think 7 is my lowest score and double digits are more common.
Part of the problem has been my distance, and the control, and the approach, and the lake and the confidence, and yeah - I just suck overall.

 

[sisyphus]

More ...respect?... for Idlewild #6. Last night at our handicap league, the four guys on our card each struggled in different ways up the length of the hole, only to realize we'd just carded a "star frame": we each had a 7. Ugh!

 

[Blobfish]

Not necessarily your favorite hole, although the ones on my list are some of my favorite holes. What is the hardest hole out there from a technicality standpoint? Some of my nominees are:

Linbrook #7 - 885 feet par 4. Have to hit a pretty extreme hyzer just right as the fairway winds downhill in order to have a chance at a decent up shot. A lot of trees to contend with to the pin.
.

Linbrook 7 took me a full half hour. Lost my tee shot, finally found it, lost my second shot, finally found it, played a safe out and then lost my fourth shot and finally found it.

Hole 2 at the first tee of the lowcountry is nigh impossible for me off the blue tee. You have to trust that you can throw a low laser shot from tee to basket because any error is a lost disc

 

[Central Scrutinizer]

Hole 2 at the first tee of the lowcountry is nigh impossible for me off the blue tee. You have to trust that you can throw a low laser shot from tee to basket because any error is a lost disc

I hit a tree just inches past its murky water but couldn't find my Disc (a lavender Star Beast I originally bagged because I needed something expendable for water shots and ended up liking it). Not sure if it fell into the water, and HELL NO, I'm not sticking any part of my body in any water around there.

Yes, I became acquainted with the huge freaking gator on the pond hole near the end of the course. It was sunning itself thankfully on the other side of the pond from me when I noticed it.

There's a reason why I don't mind 20 or 10 or zero degrees Fahrenheit up here in Michigan for a few months...

 

[roggenb3]

Wilderness long to long 18.

Had a 15 footer for 4 that I missed yesterday. Only gotten 1 other 5, every other time has been 6+. But 6 doesn't feel that bad there.

 

[armiller]

...
Moraine #6 - 934 feet from the gold tee, 675 feet from the blue tee. Par 5 that plays through patches of trees and plays like a tunnel shot to the right of the these patches. You have to keep your disc very straight for a very long distance to score well here.
...

Linbrook #7 - 885 feet par 4. Have to hit a pretty extreme hyzer just right as the fairway winds downhill in order to have a chance at a decent up shot. A lot of trees to contend with to the pin.

Deer Lakes #9 - 846 feet from the blue tee, 774 feet from the white tee. Plays pretty open for the first few hundred feet, then you have to hit a tight window to enter the woods. From there, plays slightly downhill and through a lot of trees with a nasty drop behind the pin.
...

Others:

Moraine 16
Harmon Hills 17
Selah Ranch Lakeside 4 and 7
A couple of holes at Sugaree but I can't remember the numbers

Linbrook 7 took me a full half hour. Lost my tee shot, finally found it, lost my second shot, finally found it, played a safe out and then lost my fourth shot and finally found it.

Now that I've played some Pittsburgh courses, I had to chime in.

The Moraine and Linbrook holes are both challenging but seem pretty reasonable to me. 16 is tight but it's all about getting up that initial hill. There are plenty of gaps, but boy is it easy to hit those trees! I just had a tournament out there and got par twice, with one double bogey.

At Moraine, sadly, the toughest hole of the tournament for me was 9. It's not terribly technical, but I managed to hit early trees every time. I was 5 (maybe 6?) over on 9 alone after three rounds, but that also involved a putt rollaway that turned into a triple bogey.

Some of the most difficult technical holes had to be at Trey Ranch. The par 5 on Trey Deuce (is it hole 10?) is crazy from the long tees, with an initial gap followed by some later fairway narrowing. It does open up a bit after that, but it's tough.

 

[Casey 1988]

Hardest hole I have ever played was at My local Pierre SD Course Steamboat Park hole 8 as a big huge Russian Olive is just off to the right when playing the hole, can make it so you are literally pitching out of the Russian Olive in order to play the course and not have to go to the hospital for thorn problems. Sadly due to a Water Treatment plant that might get put there the course might loose the holes 6-9 or at least 7-9 and live with a 14 or 15 hole course. The other hole depends on if the New bridge will make hole 6 disappear too. The hole has made me score as high as a 12 a few years ago and a 8 this year.

 

[pauld]

The Apple Farm course in upstate NY, hole 17. I believe it's been changed, when I played it the fairway was a one lane road with apple trees/brush on both sides for about 300+ feet.