Jussi Meresmaa design concepts are...'Meh'

[JTacoma03]

I had a long response planned but I think Jussi covered it. The main problem is we're not talking on the same level here.

Different courses will be designed for different player types. To call St. Jude's a 'typical' DiscGolfPark design is simply untrue.

Course designs which give consideration to media coverage are not "cart before the horse" but in fact the opposite - synergistic growth. We have an opportunity to carve a unique position by marrying filming techniques that myself and others have developed into a common "language" for the audience to understand with courses that both challenge the pros and allow the audience to follow along and cheer...please note that I'm not saying all courses will be like this, and I'm definitely not saying I don't want trees involved. I mean, I live in NorCal, I definitely don't hate trees in course design...

 

[sjberry2017]

So, take what was a "do I go for it and have to re-tee if I miss it" decision and turn it into a mindless "grip it and rip it and if I come up short, it's an easy 3" hyzer bomb. :gross:

Valid point, and I understand that's why it was probably done that way. But the idea that you're taking this bunker that's clearly by the basket and saying if you go here, you have to re-tee, just feels, well, gimicky to me. To me, a bunker is a spot where, if you go here, you lose a stroke, but you should get to play from the drop since you crossed in bounds at one point. Having to retee just doesn't sit right with me, and I'm not sure how to better explain it other than saying that.


As to Jussi's whole string of responses, first, thank you Jussi for coming here to explain a bit more about the particulars around this course design. If my posts came across in any way as belittling the work and thought which you put into this course and event, I apologize. You did a great job on the short timeframe you had, and donating your time was quite noble and generous. I did not consider the limitations that the golf club would place on what you could do with the design, and I do like what you did with most of the basket placements. The bunkers were definitely used effectively to make putting and upshots tricky business, and that part of the tournament was fun.

However, these huge drives were kind of boring to watch, and a wide open golf course is still not something I would consider to be an ideal place to play disc golf. To get a better idea of where I'm coming from, please go back to my earlier post and watch the video of that tournament. To reiterate it, the problem I have with the St. Jude's course is that it is so wide open. It didn't seem like placing the disc was as critical as it was made out to be. Maybe, as a player who is rated 763 and can throw 300' on a good day, I just couldn't make that connection with the course, but other than landing WAYYYYYYYY off course in the scrub, it seemed that most shots were relatively easy to recover from. On courses with trees, it's a lot easier to see how placement affects the second shot, and it frames the challenge more clearly for the 763 or 875 or whatever rated golfer watching the tournament. I would go so far as to say it translates the challenge much more clearly to the general public.

The weird thing is that I'm going off on these huge rants, and yet The Beast in Nokia is one of the top courses in the world in my mind, and that is a Jussi design. I still go back and watch the 2013 European Open on SpinTV, and I'm looking forward to seeing the coverage of the European Open this year. I also really like the Perth course, and think that that course is a great example of how to make an effective disc golf course on a ball golf course. Of course, I realize the Perth course is a much different situation than the St. Jude's tournament. But the key with these courses, as compared to the St. Jude course, is they are wooded, and yet still provide a decently easy way to show the sport. I want to reiterate what I said about Jarva; if you had a second camera person, like Jomez Productions or (occasionally) McFlySoHigh, then showing the finish of the flight of the disc in the woods or down the fairway isn't an issue. And I think that is where I disagree with Jussi on this statement:

And yes, this course fits my plans where Disc Golf becomes exposed outside the current disc golfing community. To be able to film this sport correctly, we need to come out from the wood work. It´s impossible to sell the image to the big audience when playing in the bush. Golf courses were not designed for Disc Golf. But they offer really nice stage for showcase it for the people who does not understand it. (both talent and design). Ideally, Disc Golf has its own facilities (like Järva).

I see this development great, since we will have more variety of courses. Making a long and challenging pro course takes nothing away from local amateur player.

"DeLa was originally designed when discs were round and players were hip and cool. Nowadays discs are sharp and players round."

Except that MOST of the problems with covering DeLa would be pretty easy to mitigate with the second camera which I discussed earlier. I don't think ball golf courses are really a great place to introduce disc golf, since they usually take away the line shaping which is so critical as to why disc golf is different than ball golf. DeLa is, to me, a better vehicle (and yes, even though I'm a Dodge guy, I'd take a '69 Corvette over a Model S any day. I'd just sell it and buy a 71 Cuda Hemi ) to display disc golf to the general public because they will get the idea that disc golf is about shaping the flight of the disc. It's a bit harder to express that idea when you have a course like the St. Jude course where you line up a shot, bomb it, and then have a fifty or 75 or 100 foot window or whatever for your disc to land, and if you miss that window, the recovery shot isn't too bad unless you REALLY messed up, like the one hole where you tee off from the rough and the hole curves left, and a lot of pros went way right and ended up dealing with a few trees that made the second shot annoying. Yet again, if you go back and watch the McFlySoHigh video I posted earlier, that disc golf design on a ball golf course required more line shaping. You didn't need to be able to bomb 475'+ to be competitive, and the fact that you can bomb a disc 475'+ was only an advantage on a few holes.

But at the end of the day, the world is more than large enough for an approach to disc golf where we have more open, bombing courses and tighter, technical courses. Personally, I prefer the more technical courses (Trojan Lake and Maple Hill immediately spring to mind, as well as The Beast in Nokia), but I see why a promoter would prefer a more open course like the one at St. Jude's. I guess what I'm trying to say is, I really hope your designs continue in a direction more like the Perth course and The Beast, Jussi. I don't agree with the OP that the Perth course is a bad course, but I do think, after watching the tournament, that the St. Jude's course was too open and boring to watch. And I would say that the opinion of spectators and viewers has some weight, if not as much, as competitors, as it is attracting spectators to watching the sport which will really grow the sport, since spectators=money.

 

[donnyv]

Jussi can't please everyone. The dude is doing a great job of promoting and expanding the game. Designing and installing temp and perm courses is not an easy thing to do, especially if you have to make one challenging enough to test the best of the best. Mill Creek is my baby and 2/3 of it is wooded. Very beautiful, very humbling and a lot of work just to keep her up in growing season.

Pace of play for tourney's is really slow when you have all these great tree-lined and tunnel shots to contend with. Hitting those tight gaps is very rewarding and it's kinda fun seeing the power players struggle while hitting the trees. It just takes too long to finish up so I had to revamp the schedules and limit the second round to a final 9 through the scenic Creekside loop. It's no picnic but they are the best 9 of the course and have great viewing points for those just watching.

Hole 18 can be seen safely from atop the ridge.

Keep doing what you do Jussi! Even those "wide open" courses like Toboggan are awesome and no walk in the park.

 

[sjberry2017]

I had a long response planned but I think Jussi covered it. The main problem is we're not talking on the same level here.

Different courses will be designed for different player types. To call St. Jude's a 'typical' DiscGolfPark design is simply untrue.

Course designs which give consideration to media coverage are not "cart before the horse" but in fact the opposite - synergistic growth. We have an opportunity to carve a unique position by marrying filming techniques that myself and others have developed into a common "language" for the audience to understand with courses that both challenge the pros and allow the audience to follow along and cheer...please note that I'm not saying all courses will be like this, and I'm definitely not saying I don't want trees involved. I mean, I live in NorCal, I definitely don't hate trees in course design...

But to tout the St. Jude's design as great for filming and saying that a course like DeLa doesn't set up well for filming is simply untrue. I feel like I keep repeating myself here, but I will at least this other time. A second camera will alleviate most of the problems with filming a course like DeLa. The second person can be far enough away that they don't interfere with disc flight most of the time (yes, some holes this will be an issue. I don't know a solution off the top of my head, but being as wide open as the St. Jude's course isn't it), and they will be able to show the landing of the disc, hopefully relative to the pin.

And a course like DeLa makes following disc flight a whole lot easier. You have more reference points to watch the disc fly, and it's easier to gauge where the disc will land. I did not really enjoy watching a disc fly out, get a huge flex, and come back time and again at St. Jude's. It just felt like I watched the same four tee shots, then same four second shots over and over again. Yeah, maybe the idea was for the disc to need to go somewhere, but the tee shots all looked pretty much identical. Even on holes at DeLa where there is basically one route to the basket (Hole 8a immediately springs to mind), you had forehand and backhand drives, and in those forehands and backhands you had different thought processes as to whether to go near the pin and risk going down the hill, or to play it more towards the left side of the pin and have a more nerve-wracking putt. The St. Jude course just didn't have that kind of variety in tee shots, save for hole 16 and whatever the hole was where you teed off looking at the golf fairway and the pin was way over in the rough, behind the gigantic trees.

So if the St. Jude course was designed to be a great spectator course and make exciting disc golf to watch, well, it fell pretty flat for me. Even Steve Rico's chase wasn't as fun and exciting as it could have been, thanks partly to how the course played for the pros. It just felt a little too easy; hole 17(?), the one where Nate Doss just absolutely played it perfectly, was pretty boring. In theory, it's a great hole, and if you nail everything the way Doss did, it's a great bird. But if you mess up one shot, the recovery for a par isn't a huge deal, and the odds of getting a birdie seemed to be pretty slim. I wouldn't mind seeing what the scoring percentage break down was, but again, for me, it seemed to be a decently boring hole when you look at how the tournament played out. But I digress

 

[JTacoma03]

But to tout the St. Jude's design as great for filming and saying that a course like DeLa doesn't set up well for filming is simply untrue. I feel like I keep repeating myself here, but I will at least this other time. A second camera will alleviate most of the problems with filming a course like DeLa. The second person can be far enough away that they don't interfere with disc flight most of the time (yes, some holes this will be an issue. I don't know a solution off the top of my head, but being as wide open as the St. Jude's course isn't it), and they will be able to show the landing of the disc, hopefully relative to the pin.

And a course like DeLa makes following disc flight a whole lot easier. You have more reference points to watch the disc fly, and it's easier to gauge where the disc will land. I did not really enjoy watching a disc fly out, get a huge flex, and come back time and again at St. Jude's. It just felt like I watched the same four tee shots, then same four second shots over and over again. Yeah, maybe the idea was for the disc to need to go somewhere, but the tee shots all looked pretty much identical. Even on holes at DeLa where there is basically one route to the basket (Hole 8a immediately springs to mind), you had forehand and backhand drives, and in those forehands and backhands you had different thought processes as to whether to go near the pin and risk going down the hill, or to play it more towards the left side of the pin and have a more nerve-wracking putt. The St. Jude course just didn't have that kind of variety in tee shots, save for hole 16 and whatever the hole was where you teed off looking at the golf fairway and the pin was way over in the rough, behind the gigantic trees.

So if the St. Jude course was designed to be a great spectator course and make exciting disc golf to watch, well, it fell pretty flat for me. Even Steve Rico's chase wasn't as fun and exciting as it could have been, thanks partly to how the course played for the pros. It just felt a little too easy; hole 17(?), the one where Nate Doss just absolutely played it perfectly, was pretty boring. In theory, it's a great hole, and if you nail everything the way Doss did, it's a great bird. But if you mess up one shot, the recovery for a par isn't a huge deal, and the odds of getting a birdie seemed to be pretty slim. I wouldn't mind seeing what the scoring percentage break down was, but again, for me, it seemed to be a decently boring hole when you look at how the tournament played out. But I digress

You're repeating yourself, yes, but you're missing a good few key points that would devolve us into a much longer discussion about the philosophy of the future of the game, etc. when the original intent of this thread was to say that all of Jussi's designs are the same (another thing I disagree with).

I think at this point we simply have to agree to disagree.

 

[Cgkdisc]

Two points somewhat in opposition:

When setting up a temporary course, you're likely forced to use more open terrain that only has to be mowed because you're likely not able to brush hog and clear trees for fairways.

It does no good to have ideal video and spectator setups when what they will watch is not compelling enough to watch, let alone pay to watch.

 

[DiscLoser1]

^This...

And I never agreed with the OP myself, and the last 40 posts have been about this specific tourney layout.

All due respect, but more cryptic references to the 'future of the game' don't go a long way towards making the play at St. Jude compelling. I assume the philosophy you speak of may entail ideas you want to keep to yourselves.

Again, thanks for your time here and efforts in the game, but we will have to agree to blah blah blah.

 

[Mocheez]

Two points somewhat in opposition:

When setting up a temporary course, you're likely forced to use more open terrain that only has to be mowed because you're likely not able to brush hog and clear trees for fairways.

It does no good to have ideal video and spectator setups when what they will watch is not compelling enough to watch, let alone pay to watch.

^^^^^ :clap:

 

[sjberry2017]

You're repeating yourself, yes, but you're missing a good few key points that would devolve us into a much longer discussion about the philosophy of the future of the game, etc. when the original intent of this thread was to say that all of Jussi's designs are the same (another thing I disagree with).

I think at this point we simply have to agree to disagree.

Agreed; I was trying to avoid getting on that tangent discussion as well. Still, thank you for the coverage SpinTV had from St. Judes.

Two points somewhat in opposition:

When setting up a temporary course, you're likely forced to use more open terrain that only has to be mowed because you're likely not able to brush hog and clear trees for fairways.

It does no good to have ideal video and spectator setups when what they will watch is not compelling enough to watch, let alone pay to watch.

Agreed on both fronts, especially the second; that was really what I was trying to get at.

Anyways, live long and throw plastic circles at oddly shaped BBQ grills *Spock Emoticon*

 

[JMeresmaa]

It's similar to Paul McBeth's philosophy at Winthrop (not the best example since he's never won there). He said [paraphrasing], "you can't sit back and play it safe. You have to attack the course on every hole. You'll screw it up a few times, but hopefully you'll get enough birdies to come out on top."
Winthrop hole 17: very few people lay up and get the 3. Most people run the green. Somebody out there is going to get "lucky" enough to get their birdie all 4 rounds, so if you want to win the tournament, you have to match that guy. You'll never win by getting pars on that hole.

Last year walking to the 17th tee John McCray had the USDGC in his pocket. With laying up, he could have won it. Instead running four times to the green and taking a 9.

I named hole 10 at Bayonet as "Simon trap" before the event. That was one of the holes where you could loose the event but not win. With the course design, I wanted to create a situations where laying up is okay. Its a new thing for these guys. They have used to run for the birdie every single hole.

 

[sidewinder22]

Can you design a McBeth trap?

 

[JMeresmaa]

It does no good to have ideal video and spectator setups when what they will watch is not compelling enough to watch, let alone pay to watch.

(Disclaimer: following piece of theory is from a person who lives really close to Siberia and has long enough distance to see outside the spo(r)t. This message is not aimed to Chuck personally but all who read. All the situations in this theory described are fictional. But true. I´m really low on smileys, but I hope you can read this with your tongue in cheek)

Indeed! This is tasty topic. Let me quickly introduce you a "Black Spot" theory. I appreciate all your passion and knowledge towards Disc Golf. However, current disc golfers (specially this group) represents the ultimate Black Spot. What does it mean?

I have studied this game called Frolf, Frisbeegolf or Disc Golf for 20+ years. All those years, I´ve tried to figure out Why we´re still here? Why we are still chucking plates in the woods when Skateboarding, Snowboarding and BMX are global sports? Ed´s first basket was installed in the shades of oaks and it was free to play. Since 70s we (the Black Spot) have owned this game.

You, right you reading to this are the reason. And the victim. You say watching players throw 450+ foot shots in the open is boring. You want to take it to the real challenge - the woods. That´s where you have learned the game.

Black Spot represents its own ideas and vision of the game. But. How do we know what the rest of the world wants? Or likes?
Do we know that general public wants to see a player get Delad? Yea, we speak cryptic. "You would not know it - its a frolf thing".

You are focusing to that [tiny] black spot representing the game. The more I studied the more I realised that all the actions we do are towards to the spot (not sport). Whole nine yards, from paying winning money form others´pockets at the parking lot to course design for the existing players. Look at all the live streams that we have? Is that great we can now follow our guys online with our friends? Yes it is. Is that interesting for a complete new person to learn what Disc Golf is? No. Isn´t this new disc called Pig dope? Yes! What would the general public think when finding that from the shelves of Dick´s? What a..?!

Did you get the spoint?

We are stuck with our limited capabilities and visions. Its hard to know whats outside the bubble. I like to read a lot so I can expand my universe. I like to test and try new things. But most of all, I like to shake existing old frontiers. My personal favourite question is why not?

I like playing challenging wooded courses. In fact, from all the 100+ courses I have designed, over 33% is wooded. The OP claimed that my ball golf course designs are "meh". Simply, I was not serving the spot. I´m currently testing new things. You´ll hear much more in the next 6-8 months.

I wish you a great summer with Disc Golf!

http://www.golfdigest.com/blogs/the-loop/2015/04/footgolf-finding-its-way-at-us-golf-courses.html

 

[sidewinder22]

Who in the World is spectating Footgolf? The demographic of Siberia!

 

[Aim For The Chains]

I enjoy watching a lot of disc golf in the winter months. I have seen many, many, many DG videos from round coverage to casual etc.

I find footage of courses like we saw at St. Jude boring and the players often seem out of place. Very little shot shaping which is the exciting part to watch as well as ace runs or crazy comebacks etc.

layups are boring disc golf. big bombs are boring disc golf. most productions have very little excitement value even with a close battle going on. Terry Miller probably tries the best to "put you" into the time and place during his live coverage and find the filmed rounds lack that same excitement.

I purposely was not following who won St.,Jude until I could watch the videos.... well kind of wish I had just joined in the the discussion and said F it. Didn't miss much at all. Stuff like that OB call was probably the most viral excitement around the whole event, lol.

To me the black spot theory needs to include the fact that this IS Frolf, Frisbeegolf or Disc Golf. Most players dislike to play courses (regularly and pay $) like the temp one at St. Jude in my experience. It is neat but the wow factor quickly goes away. Disc Golf is just pretty boring in general. I don't think a lot of people look at as a sport like the top players do.

FWIW our state Lacrosse team is no longer a thing-- yet even the owner states there is "rapid" growth but when it comes down to the REAL test with actual fans and spectators to support the team that actually plays well, no one shows up to see.

"Today is an exciting day as we open a new chapter in team history," said Swarm owner John Arlotta,. "The sport of lacrosse is growing at a rapid pace and we're thrilled to bring the fastest game on two feet at the professional level to our new home."

Last week the team, which has played in the Xcel Energy Center for the past decade, announced its plans to leave the Twin Cities for the 2016 season. The squad made the National Lacrosse League's postseason in seven of its 11 seasons (impressive by Minnesota standards). Swarm fans turned out in record numbers last year, averaging 8,700 people a game. But that wasn't enough to get the guys with those goofy net sticks out of the red.

 

[esdubya]

Jussi - Thanks for that last post - amazing!! :clap::clap:

Keep shaking things up, brother!

 

[biscoe]

The "Spot" has been and still is growing steadily. The "Sport" may or may not grow to suit those who feel it should be something the "Spot" is not. Many believe that dg has more in common with pastimes such as softball (which occupies one heck of a big "spot") than with fast paced visually appealing tv fodder like bmx, skateboarding, etc.

I suppose I am simply incapable of seeing the forest for the trees like the true visionaries out there.

 

[johnrhouck]

I hope Strawn can be something similar once it's all cut out.

Flip, anyone who appreciates WR Jackson will love Strawn. Strawn has much more elevation, amazing -- and more recurring --creek features, some less wooded areas for better variety, and new structural features unlike any I've ever done. Instead of Gold tees, like WR Jackson, Strawn will have Blue tees and Gold pin positions, so it will be accessible to more players day-to-day and can still test the best for tournaments. (It will also have White and Red tees.) For that matter, Frost Valley will be in that same elite category, and Carrollton will be not far behind.

 

[scarpfish]

The "Spot" has been and still is growing steadily.

And as long as that keeps happening, I'm not too worried about what the unconverted think. This game is going to be a hard sell for the yuppie opportunists with deep pockets who are only looking for the latest thing to carpetbag off of. No one is going to likely to get hooked on disc golf unless they try to play it.

 

[JTacoma03]

The "Spot" has been and still is growing steadily. The "Sport" may or may not grow to suit those who feel it should be something the "Spot" is not. Many believe that dg has more in common with pastimes such as softball (which occupies one heck of a big "spot") than with fast paced visually appealing tv fodder like bmx, skateboarding, etc.

I suppose I am simply incapable of seeing the forest for the trees like the true visionaries out there.

You're completely missing the point.

The spot will always grow, for every sport. It takes literally no effort to "#growthespot", you just do what we've been doing for 30 years.

The point Jussi is making is that the TOP LEVEL of the game should not be catering to the SPOT, but rather the SPORT.

If the spot will grow on it's own (let's be catchy and call it organic, or grassroots, growth) - why on earth should we cater to it? Our efforts are better spent growing the SPORT so that the "black spotters" who decide to progress beyond that level may ultimately have a viable option to join the sport.

You (the in-general you) can have your baggy cargos and high top hiking boots, or your 30 pack of natty and 3 discs, or an inane obsession with pre-2005 plastic while throwing 850-rated rounds...however we can also have athletes who desire something better, we can have people who pour their heart and souls into making something that is attractive to watch, we can have kids who say "I want to be Paul McBeth when I grow up"...it's OK.

Live as a black spotter if you want (again, in general, not calling biscoe out) but have the decency to draw the line at actively rooting against the sport. I promise your 5200' par 54 frolf courses will still exist...there just may be more people playing the nice course down the street in the future.

 

[JTacoma03]

To me the black spot theory needs to include the fact that this IS Frolf, Frisbeegolf or Disc Golf. Most players dislike to play courses (regularly and pay $) like the temp one at St. Jude in my experience. It is neat but the wow factor quickly goes away. Disc Golf is just pretty boring in general. I don't think a lot of people look at as a sport like the top players do.
]

As long as you understand that this is your opinion, and not reality.

I've now toured around the country twice. Day in and day out I see people wanting more. I've been lucky and blessed enough to see disc golf on 4 continents in the last 12 months, and people want more. All of the evidence is to the contrary of what you're saying. It's a hell of a lot of baby steps, because that's how long-lasting growth happens, but fans of the sport are there and they want the sport and not the spot.